Karaoke Forums

18 years ago I started buying discs & asking questions & in 2000 started my show.

Purchasing from lot's of .coms that were licensed to sell the big 3, among many others (including labels such as Legends, Backstage, Zoom, Sunfly (all the foreign stuff we didn't know was foreign & bought from US re-sellers)).

As early (late to some of you) as 2008, PATRONS were telling me of the many benefits of 'going digital' & requesting that I do. I'd been shown one of the big 3's permission to use computers, with a promise not to sue (Which they would break, only 5 years after it was authored, even though permission to use a computer (MP3+G), inferred permission to copy their trademark, since copying & removing it would ACTUALLY be against the law, without explicit permission to do so, but then promises & permissions & lawyer firms studies don't actually seem to mean anything anymore) & read "IP Justice'" (a law firm specializing in intellectual property) findings on the issue of whether the copying or 'media shifting' was legal.

I had enough discs to double book from time to time & on one such occasion, as I rediscovered my bladder & was tending to same, some 'guy' in a hoody walked up to my rig, snagged (2) 350 disc binders & left the building - the decision to go digital had just become a most definite & resounding "YES!!"

Then things in the US were falling apart, I had no idea why, but the collapse started with various companies accusing each other of improper licensing - Around 2011 one of the big 3 went under, along with top hits monthly... the next year a 2nd big 3 label didn't go out of business, but had stopped producing new music, allegedly in preparation for a new twist in customer service: 'litigation.'

The only option to get past their main page was to ask for forgiveness, for being a pirate (since I am not, I never got to see what lay beyond the gates of paranoia). The 3rd seemed to be offering 'forgiveness' as well, nobody seemed to think that anyone, could be as honest as they knew how to be: I can't speak for everyone, but I never dressed in a trench coat, in some back alley and said "gimme the good stuff..." but with the scare tactics & welcoming 'pirates' & 'lowlifes' I took my business elsewhere.

Sadly, (sort of, I discovered some companies that, in my opinion know better, how to create Gr8 quality product combined with tremendous customer service) being 'foreign' they are alleged to be not legitimately licensed for use in the US, even though the company I rent from offer titles from foreign labels, while a high ranking worker in one of the new 'hey you can rent what you bought, cuz we're legit, and you know this, because ... we just said so' companies, authored a speculative article about how a global license doesn't work in the US/Canada, even though TriceraSoft (out of Canada) claims that they (& we) are still actually a part of the Earth.

Currently I'm renting from one company (who won't explain the no fly list, but offers many titles by artists on it, nor will they help me add my 18 year collection back, by label but instead offers propaganda about how the only producers that would be 'safe,' are the few that they offer - including some foreign labels?!) & buying from the only producer in the US still producing and willing to give permission to have a backup copy (keeping a 1:1 ratio) and to media shift, and claim that everything that they produce, is legitimately licensed (just like EVERY other company...)

LOOOOOOOONG story short - We can't trust lawyers or there research (neither can most of us afford a $500/hr IP lawyer), we never are/were privy to any company's licensing agreements, we aren't positive that foreign labels (although a KIAA authorized sellers offers for sale Backstage's 'Eagles disc' (Hello no fly list...), We supposedly can't trust anything from companies who are out of business, & even if one de-evolves to disc use, for the sake of using karaoke invested in, from the 'litigious ones,' They won't even say that that's okay....

I've invoices for EVERY digital purchase (All Star & even from Zoom, SBI, Karaoke Version) & discs to backup, well all discs/media-shifted files) BUT no one is willing to say what's good or not and my 'songlord' (they from whom I rent, supposedly peer into my gear once a month, which I don't mind mostly...

I don't have anything to hide, but I also don't want to infringe on behalf of some company whose product was sold to me, in good faith... Allowing any one of the companies involved in this mess to do a disc audit, is like saying 'hey ref', you can vote on the game' - we can't trust them either - some words that I have heard on that subject: racketeering, entrapment, hypocrisy(regarding warning against using discs/product from ANY producer sued by the music industry(the ONLY one of those in existence, to the best of my knowledge & research is Daiichi Kosho Karaoke USA inc.).

A list of producers in my library (discs & digital) from memory: All Hits, AmeriSing, RadioStarz, Chartbuster, Sound Choice, Sweet Georgia Brown, Top Tunes, Sava, Hot Stuff, Pioneer, Pridiss, Dangerous, Ultra Sonic, Helluvadisc, Madacy, Compass, Top Hits Monthly, Dr. Music, All Star, Pop Hits Monthly, Pop Hits Today, Pop Singles Monthly, Sunfly, Zoom, Disney Records, Karaoke Box, SBI, Karaoke Version, DK Millennium Set ...

So can anyone offer any piece of mind?

I moved this in the appropriate forum. Please keep all legal talk in here, that's what we have it for.

Also I would recommend to use some paragraphs in your posts for easier readability. It took me almost 5 minutes to read everything.

If you possess original media, then maintain 1-1 and you are okay. If you own any Sound Choice material, I would suggest contacting them and asking them about audits, certification, GEM, etc. In spite of the rumor mills, they are good, easy people to work with.

I also buy downloads and keep both the PayPal receipt as well as the OEM receipt.

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-Chris

Welcome. But please....





EDIT: Thanks!

Welcome Sqwigee. Your post contained some great content. Thank you.

Peace of mind? You are in the wrong business these days. I don't use a PC, and am Original Mfr. Disc based. Guess what? Though safe from karaoke producer / IP trolls, if the publishers felt like it they could end it all tomorrow - there is no professional USAGE licensing for karaoke.

Not peaceful, but still fun.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

[quote="Alex"] Also I would recommend to use some paragraphs in your posts for easier readability. It took me almost 5 minutes to read everything.[/quote]
Thanks, being a newby I wasn't sure I could hit enter, without submitting the entered text!

Thanks for t edit as well!

Hiya Sqwigee,

Limit your worries to only the things you can change or do yourself, and relax about the rest. Because no one can do more.

You and I started at roughly the same time -- and I see by your manus. list we probably followed similar shopping strategies at the start. These problems with the business you mention are all dead-on correct, real, and represent the headaches we've all been grappling with for years (and arguing in forums for as long as we've had forums). A lot of us have let off the steam a little at a time, but sounds like you kept a lid on it 'til now. Well, you picked a good place to vent. Every KJ can empathize. Well every legal one -- it's safe to figure the pirates don't give a cahoot.

All of us that shopped in good faith for all these years are in the same boat. All you can do is keep your discs (even do a self-audit to be sure you're 1 for 1 -- heck I'd had a few discs lost or stolen I didn't even know were missing 'til I did a self-audit, things move around a lot in 18 years), and keep all your KV, Tricera, Select receipts.

Then like the rest of us, wait and watch as the legalities over which we have no control sort themselves out. No one knows how the story will end.

Pass the popcorn.

"It was clear as mud, but it cover the ground ... & the confusion make me spin & go round..." - Harry Belafonte
I guess just one of my points of frustration is that, I've never gone out of my way to "cheat the system" or 'infringe' against anyone, & have always been out to "create fun" & promote happiness, not just in the show, but in people's everyday lives as well. NOW, I rent from a company who markets the: "leave the legal worries to us" angle, while within their very usage agreement they state a) if there's any third party infringement, that they claim indemnity, & b) in the event of any 3rd party infringement, they would turn you in to the proper authorities. Which caused me to ask: which producers I could re-introduce in my show (as I've limited my library to the "rental" and All Star, who've given me written permissions and verification of their licensing's legitimacy), I've asked how they could publish the no-fly list & then offer songs WRITTEN by artists on that list, I've asked how to start a dialogue with someone to be able to use MY chartbuster collection, since in a LOT of cases by adding a different logo, the graphics are royally OOC, whereas mine work just fine... with no answer or suggestions besides... you should just use ours... we're legit, all the while I found out from someone at ORKA (Oregon Karaoke Association) that the 'gentleman' I'd been asking is apparently ALSO the person who is in charge of audits for "Piracy Recovery LLC" (The current owners of the Chartbuster TM) - deception builds contempt, not customers.
I say NO!! Legit is when you go to a grocery store & if they're out of something, or don't carry it, they refer you to a different company that does vs. asking you to wait a few years, so the bureaucracy can eventually get it stocked in their store... They might lose that sale, but they build mutual trust, respect & patronage. It's called customer service & apparently Americans are all about the reciprocating income, not the relationships required to maintain it!! I feel I want to put MY discs & MY acquisitions back online and say phooey to this "safe" (not so safe) rental crap!! Saving of course all of my SC & CB, and while I haven't heard about any lawsuits from PHM, Stellar seemed to be headed in that direction before they were sued out of business, apparently for their "roll your own" line, though production/sales & use of licensed backing tracks are legal, so I haven't understood why they were sued? I want to just quit, but there are so many people that get help from the show, I can't bring myself to.
Just last night, someone asked for a Bon Jovi Song, which I have in multiple discs (even the big three, so it stands to reason the rights must have been sold at one point), but being on the no-fly list I don't know if I should omit all songs associated with the list when reintroducing my library or not? GRRRRRRR

The "No Fly" list that's had the latest publicity is a list of rights holders (artists or their publishers) that don't want the karaoke version of their songs sold as DOWNLOADS over the internet. That's not to be confused with an older list of rights holders who never granted permission for their stuff to be sold on DISCS.

So depending on the licensing, a given artist's stuff might be illegal in any form, or legal on disc but not for download, or legal for both disc and download.

The term "No Fly list" has been in usage recently for the "No Downloads list". I don't know if there ever was a special name for the list of artists who said no to karaoke altogether.

SBI's website is a good place to look to get a sense of what's what. For any song you look up, they tell you how it is and is NOT available. If it was never licensed at all, they can still sell you a backing track without graphics (if they made it), if it was licensed for disc only they can sell you a cdg or custom cdg which includes the graphics, and if it was licensed for downloads then you could get it on disc or as an mp3+g download. Bon Jovi is a good example. You can still get Bed of Roses on a custom cdg, but you can no longer purchase the download.

My explanation is somewhat over-simplified. For example in the UK they don't actually license tracks for download, as a blanket license permits that, UNLESS and UNTIL an artist explicitly opts out. Whereas in the US a separate license for each song has to be granted FIRST before it can become a legal karaoke track, and a second license before the karaoke track can be sold as a legal download.

To make it more interesting you have to keep in mind these lists can change at any time and from day to day. So a song that was available for download yesterday might not be legally available anymore today. Discs that were legally pressed can still be sold and used, but they may have to stop making more of them if the licensing expires and is not renewed or renewable.

Ain't nothin' simple!

Bottom line as far as i am concerned. Use what you paid for in good faith, until someone with the authority to do so *the actual rights holders* says you can't. In other words, unless you actually get a "cease and desist" order, which is EXTREMELY unlikely, you are fine.


-James

If you own it on original manufactures disc you have zero worries. We play 'no fly' songs on almost a daily basis that were purchased before they were pulled and placed on the 'no fly' list. Downloads , well the rules are different.

KJflorida, the qustion arises: Couldn't the owners work the same media shifting angle SC has with PC hosts?

I'm betting that they could, if so inclined, and if they did, it would be in such a way as to eclipse any efforts by SC/ Phoenix, PR, and the like.

When that happens, they may even decide to try and charge OMD hosts fees for usage licensing.

At some point the whole media shifting question will have to be decided permanently and definitely - and it won't be karaoke companies that do it.

No reason for me to stop being OMD based until that happens. Good business means keeping costs contained and avoiding waves when possible.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe, the music publishers already have that kind of thing. I assume you've heard of ASCAP and BMI?

I have. If you check the BMI site you will note that they specifically state that they do not cover Sync licensing or usage...

I haven't checked ASCAP yet, but assume they are the same until I read otherwise.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

but BMI does have an add on for karaoke.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

So does ASCAP!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

yup, both of them do.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

And neither one of them cares what form the karaoke takes.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

*sigh*

There is no such thing as "sync for usage." Synchronization refers to the creation of a derivative work by synchronizing a sound recording to video. You do not need a synchronization license to play a karaoke track. You need a performance license, which is what ASCAP and BMI sell.

I understand that ultimately what is logical isn't what things are, but logically it doesn't seem they should be able to differentiate between charges for specific forms of usage. I mean, how many categories do they list that they can charge for? Are there potential uses that are not included in their list of things they can charge for? Does the pricing change the more or less, say, a jukebox is used? Just seems a bit convoluted to me...