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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:30 am 
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Newspaper today claims gas is over $9.00 a gallon in central California.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:27 am 
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mrscott wrote:
I see what they are doing and understand it a bit too. What they are trying to accomplish is to capture energy this is not being utilized while slowing, via the braking system. However, a car is only braking a small portion of the time while it is being driven. Hence, it only can recharge the system on a limited basis. It still does not answer the concept or belief that is in my head. What I am thinking is an additional set of electrical generators, one on each wheel that operation simple by the forward motion of the car,,, much like the bicycle light system I already mentioned. Or, a system that is attached to each wheel that is magnetic and does not cause any friction,,, also much like the magneto on a lawn mower. But rather than the power to be used to create spark to ignite fuels, it is stored into the battery system of the car. Now, here is the part I am very unfamiliar with,,, can a battery be charging and discharging at the same time? Is that a possibility? I do not know..like I said, I am definitely NO electrical engineer.

Conservation of energy still applies. The energy to put the car in motion comes from the battery (and gravity if going downhill). Any energy used for charging such as you describe necessarily comes from energy used to put the car in motion. That energy comes from the conversion of chemical energy in the battery to kinetic energy at the wheels and the conversion isn't 100% efficient due to losses via friction and heat. At highway speeds, wind resistance of the car body and rolling resistance of the tires become significant sources of energy loss as well.

Which means on a flat road any energy recovered in the manner you describe must necessarily either reduce the speed of the motor or increase the energy consumption from the battery. In other words, there's no point because you cannot be more efficient when converting that energy three times (battery > wheel > battery > wheel) than you can when just converting it once (battery > wheel).

On a downhill road, you can recover some energy, assuming you don't want to travel as fast as gravity would have you travel. But that energy recovery is handled through the regenerative braking system.

To put it in terms of a gasoline car, even if you could somehow perfectly convert the heat energy from braking to gasoline, that still wouldn't justify applying the brakes all the time because that would just make the engine work harder, consuming the equivalent amount of fuel being converted from braking, just to maintain the same speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:24 am 
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mrscott wrote:
I am by no means knowledgeable about electrical stuff, and I definitely do not know the laws of physics when it comes to it either. However, what you are saying is not what I am asking. If I get your answer at all, it says that regaining energy being lost at the wheel using a capture method is not possible. That is not what I am thinking. I want to ADD an additional power generation system using the vehicles own forward motion to generate at least a high percentage of the power being used at the wheel. 2 separate systems totally. If you need more power generated, then add more generators. No, I am not thinking about if you put a fan in front of a fan, that is stupid. Forward motion of the cars in itself is the power source needed to operate the generators. Will it add all of the lost/used energy the car needs to operate,,,,probably not, but at least it would augment the huge gap between charge times and run times.


I understood the configuration you're proposing. The answer to why it won't work is still the law of conversation of energy.

Think about it this way:

The immediate energy source for your generators is the forward motion of the car. But that forward motion isn't free energy. It is the result of energy expenditure from the batteries. Which means any power generation from your system will consume energy in one of two ways:

  • The vehicle uses additional energy to maintain the same speed
  • The vehicle slows down

Those are the only two possibilities.

The additional energy used to maintain speed will always be greater than any energy recovered through your power generation system, due to conversion loses. Even if this was a perfect system with no conversion loses, your system would only be able to regenerate the amount of excess energy it used in the first place. It's impossible for it to add energy to the system (with the exception of a downhill road that I mentioned, but that's already addressed by regenerative brakes).


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:33 am 
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mrscott wrote:
Are you saying that a magneto type system placed on the wheels would create a "drag" on the motion of the car already going forward? Isn't a magneto driven system a "zero" friction system? Maybe I am naïve or uneducated about this type of science, that is certainly possible. I would think it not create a drag on the car at all. Maybe another type of generation system would not create such a load. I do not know.


Yes, I am saying that, insofar as the system is generating electricity from that forward motion. That's an example of the law of conservation of energy.

I think the confusion comes from the conflation of two concepts: drag and friction. The "drag" is the work required to generate electricity. The "friction" is a mechanical component that can affect the efficiency of electricity generation.

Hopefully this makes it easier to understand the difference:

A bicycle wheel can have low friction or high friction wheel bearings. The amount of pedaling needed to move the bicycle will increase with higher friction wheel bearings. But even a bicycle on a flat surface with zero-friction wheel bearings will require pedaling effort to move the bicycle.

If you ever get a chance to play with a hand crank generator the concept will become very clear. Under no load, it spins quite easily. But add a load, such as a light bulb, and the effort required to spin it increases. Increase the load (i.e. 5 W bulb vs 10 W bulb) and the effort increases along with it.

If you're interested in learning more about the topic through some very approachable videos, I can recommend Crash Course Physics.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:42 am 
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mrscott wrote:
Like I have already said, I might be naive or uneducated about such technology. The last science class that dealt with this type of stuff I took was way back in the 6th grade. That was almost 50 years ago. Technology has evolved a lot since then. And to be perfectly honest, working with electricity scares the living bajessus out of me. My thoughts tho are that "science" is always changing and what used to be believed as "impossible" is somehow now not only possible, but the new "normal".

No judgement here. Just trying to provide good information. 6th grade science, even today, wouldn't necessarily cover such topics in detail. If you have even a passing interest in learning more about physics, definitely check out those crash course videos I linked to.

As far as science changing, that's true in the general sense and it's by design, which is why the scientific method is the best way we have to discover the truth of the natural world.

When reliable and repeatable evidence is available through observation or experimentation, that evidence is tested. If it can be used to make repeated successful predictions, the laws and theories of science are updated to account for the evidence. The alternative is to reject that evidence and that's a much worse outcome because it would mean scientists are purposely preferring a less correct understanding of the natural world.

There are some scientific laws that have been so thoroughly tested and repeatedly proved to represent the observable universe to such a degree that they are considered immutable. These fundamental laws include the conservation of energy that we have been discussing.

As a general principle, it's important to remember that scientists are not always right. But when there is widespread agreement among scientists in the field of their expertise, any non-expert that disagrees with that consensus is definitionally wrong due to their lack of expertise.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:22 am 
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Off Topic Posts Have Been Deleted.
Carry On About High Gas Prices.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:55 am 
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jdmeister wrote:
Off Topic Posts Have Been Deleted.
Carry On About High Gas Prices.


JD,,,why did you delete all my questions/posts about electric cars and the braking system, but you left all the responses by GentlemanBronco? Those were legitimate questions about how things worked, and are most definitely related to the topic in question (gas prices). Kinda confused here buddy.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:33 am 
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mrscott wrote:
jdmeister wrote:
Off Topic Posts Have Been Deleted.
Carry On About High Gas Prices.


JD,,,why did you delete all my questions/posts about electric cars and the braking system, but you left all the responses by GentlemanBronco? Those were legitimate questions about how things worked, and are most definitely related to the topic in question (gas prices). Kinda confused here buddy.


EV discussion is now in the lounge


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:59 am 
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Some good news on gas prices, nation wide the price of a gallon of gas has dropped 50 cents. The QT seems to be working and inflation is coming more under control, let's hope the FED stays the course and continues to raise interest rates another .75 bases points. Sooner or later we are going to have to have a correction aka recession, it is just a question if it is a hard or soft landing?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:34 pm 
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Bob Latshaw wrote:
mrscott wrote:
jdmeister wrote:
Off Topic Posts Have Been Deleted.
Carry On About High Gas Prices.


JD,,,why did you delete all my questions/posts about electric cars and the braking system, but you left all the responses by GentlemanBronco? Those were legitimate questions about how things worked, and are most definitely related to the topic in question (gas prices). Kinda confused here buddy.

Of course it's related to the topic. JD just doesn't understand EVs, and anything he doesn't understand makes him uncomfortable. Physics and electro-magnetism is a bit over his pay scale.


Amused am I by your ignorance.
I teach EV in college, and perhaps I actually do know about them.
You however are still clueless.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:25 pm 
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Trolling again Bob?
Careful.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:42 pm 
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@Phill will be checking in later today.

Can you say "Ban Hammer"?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:14 am 
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jdmeister wrote:
@Phill will be checking in later today.

Can you say "Ban Hammer"?

"Later today" has come and gone and I'm still here. What? You're no longer on Phil's good side? Maybe next time you're servicing him, try swallowing ;)

In the meantime, school yourself in EVs and stop pretending you know things you don't. It's getting old. The way you operate is getting old. If Phil has any sense of dignity, he'll fire your sorry a$$ and bring this board back to some sense of integrity.

:beermates:


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:34 am 
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Bob Latshaw wrote:
jdmeister wrote:
@Phill will be checking in later today.

Can you say "Ban Hammer"?

"Later today" has come and gone and I'm still here. What? You're no longer on Phil's good side? Maybe next time I'm servicing him, I'll try swallowing ;)

In the meantime, school yourself in EVs and stop pretending you know things you don't. It's getting old. The way you operate is getting old. If Phil has any sense of dignity, he'll fire my sorry a$$ and bring this board back to some sense of integrity.

:beermates:


You were warned. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
(Phill will return from vacation early August)

Perhaps he will un-ban you.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Prices
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:37 am 
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This thread serves no useful purpose any longer.


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