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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:24 am 
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Alan B wrote:
mrmarog wrote:
I chose to live free, instead of under Gov't mandate.

It truly amazes me when people say things like this and turn it into a political issue.

First of all, nobody is forcing you or "mandating" that you get the vaccine. It is strictly voluntary. Your government is NOT trying to control your life... they're trying to save it. Social distancing, wearing masks, and getting vaccinated were meant to stop the spread of this deadly virus and help save lives. If you think it's a joke, tell it to the families of the 600,000 people who's lives were taken from Covid19.

Yet, so many people have turned this into a political issue saying that they refuse to get vaccinated because they don't want government interference in their lives.

I see a double standard here...

These same people had no problem with government interference when they accepted their stimulus checks. So far, the government has issued 3 rounds of stimulus checks. A married couple would have received a total of $6400.

Yet, I haven't heard of one person who refused to accept it because they didn't want the government "interfering" in their lives. For these same people, it wasn't a political issue then, was it?

The stupidity and selfishness of these people is sad. In my view, everything the government has done so far regarding the pandemic has been helpful. But with people like you, there will always be resistance.

So, if you hate our government so much... I suggest moving to another country.


Why should all this surprise you Alan? This is the way it has been since the Tea Party movement. It is not about We The People, but rather what is in it for me. That is why the Mills and Generation Z groups feel they are being cheated, they see the BB's as sucking everything out our system, and then trying to deny those that follow the same benefits. They really don't care, as long as they get what is coming to them. Many survive on Social Security, and Medicare two programs that will be running in the red, unless we take steps to overhaul the financing on both systems. It has been the goal of conservatives to turn back the clock, and reverse all of the progressive legislation enacted up until 1970.

I have been reading a book "Evil Geniuses The Unmaking of America" by Kurt Andersen, in it he shows starting in the 70's big business started fighting back against progress made during the period of the Robber Barons. This is the time that supply side economics emerged, with the idea that magically giving tax breaks to business, and the rich, would trickle down to the rest of us. This is all hog wash. During this time the idea of "Greed Is Good" really got started, and business's started abandoning communities and workers, just focused on making money. Getting rid of even looting company pension plans, turning over the paying of benefits to the government, who insured those pensions.

I can see if you only have a short time left, you might be inclined to think to Hell with everyone else, I will soon be dead any way. It is a rather lonely way to live.

P.S. Unless of course all of your friends share the same view.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:15 am 
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We have begun to see "good as evil" and "evil as good". Now the Catholic church is mulling over the idea that "Joe the baby killer" can partake in communion! Even though it is clearly against their doctrines.

"Oh Joe, we'll let it slide for a few extra bucks in the cup". Making six year olds feel it's OK to play with themselves...... "give it a try you might like it" Letting men go into women's bathrooms. Telling young white children (especially boys) that we owe every person of color a forever apology, and that we will never be able to do enough to repay them for the damages the "white privileged" have done.

"If you want a gov't that can give you everything you need, you will have a gov't big enough to take everything you have"


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:05 am 
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mrmarog wrote:
We have begun to see "good as evil" and "evil as good". Now the Catholic church is mulling over the idea that "Joe the baby killer" can partake in communion! Even though it is clearly against their doctrines.

"Oh Joe, we'll let it slide for a few extra bucks in the cup". Making six year olds feel it's OK to play with themselves...... "give it a try you might like it" Letting men go into women's bathrooms. Telling young white children (especially boys) that we owe every person of color a forever apology, and that we will never be able to do enough to repay them for the damages the "white privileged" have done.

"If you want a gov't that can give you everything you need, you will have a gov't big enough to take everything you have"


It never ceases to amaze me how so called Christians insist on people having children they can't afford. You want people to have children, then you are unwilling to help families support these children. Life is so precious up until the birth, that is why childhood poverty is so high in this country. We have to face the fact that child birth rates are declining and are projected to do so in the future. The world population will be falling as global warming starts attacking the food chain we all depend on. By 2080 food production will fall by 1/3 in both the production of grain and meat. We are one of the few major industrial countries that don't offer support to families to try and keep them together. So why is it that so called good Christians are against families once children are born, it is up to the parents who couldn't afford the children in the first place to work that part out? Birth rates will naturally decline as natural resources and food become more scarce.

What is the matter with reworking our economy where it helps the majority of the population, not just the few rich and well connected? Such an unequal situation cannot continue, there will be a day of reckoning. It is not about the government giving you everything, it is about the government working for everyone. In the case of UBI the government will pay for it by collecting a VAT on everyone and business. The tax will fall most heavily on those it helps the poor since they spend most of their income and will be paying the bulk of the tax.

Do you really think it is fair for the rich to pay nothing, not even a minimum 15% tax, when many like Amazon pay nothing. Yet their CEO can run his own private space program?

P.S. What is the alternative to have a government that makes sure you have nothing to take in the first place, since you will never escape the class you are born into. If you are poor you will be poor, if you are working class you will remain working class, if you are in the middle you could drop lower, and for the rich they will always be on top. This country was set up to protect the property of those in charge, and nothing has really changed, except the times.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:33 am 
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LR, are you saying that no matter how hard you have worked, you have never improved your life? If that is so, why did you continue to live in such a blood sucking state? Every day that I have worked hard, I received something tangible in return.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:24 am 
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mrmarog wrote:
LR, are you saying that no matter how hard you have worked, you have never improved your life? If that is so, why did you continue to live in such a blood sucking state? Every day that I have worked hard, I received something tangible in return.



Oh I did improve my life considerably, but never escaping my class of worker. Maybe a new class working/middle class? I consider a worker as someone employed by another. To me true middle class is someone with a profession or business owner employing others.

I was born in California, and have every intention of dying here as well. My time in the military proved one thing to me, there is no place like home. The State isn't sucking my blood, I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes, as long as I get value for the dollar. I was stationed down South for awhile I didn't like it was glad to come home.

Every day I worked I received a wage and converted it into something tangible savings.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:57 am 
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My mother and father never owned a home, had only 8th grade German school educations, and we were very happy and healthy. I worked hard, graduated college with an engineering degree, have owned many homes and a business. I'd have to say my hard work paid off, especially since I retired at 60! I have no gov't retirement either.

I have gone from near poverty to upper middle class. I assure you I am not alone in this category.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:08 am 
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mrmarog wrote:
My mother and father never owned a home, had only 8th grade German school educations, and we were very happy and healthy. I worked hard, graduated college with an engineering degree, have owned many homes and a business. I'd have to say my hard work paid off, especially since I retired at 60! I have no gov't retirement either.

I have gone from near poverty to upper middle class. I assure you I am not alone in this category.



No government retirement really no Social Security, no Medicare, with your recent health expenses? You at least accepted your stimulus checks didn't you? Government isn't so terrible when you consider what the alternative would be Anarchy.

So really you have never applied for any government help, even though you could? That makes you very different from most business owners I have seen. They like using government programs if it benefits their companies, it is called corporate welfare/socialism. The reward is what you are John Wayne?

P.S. Escaping your class is very rare compared to those who stay in class. Have you really escaped in your mind, don't you sometimes think back on your humble beginnings. Don't some of those experiences shape who you are today?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:30 am 
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I knew you'd bring up social security and medicare, both of which I paid into my entire life. All my retirement comes from me and an IRA I alone funded. My wife has done the same.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:01 pm 
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mrmarog wrote:
I knew you'd bring up social security and medicare, both of which I paid into my entire life. All my retirement comes from me and an IRA I alone funded. My wife has done the same.


So did all of us as far as paying into social security and medicare, but both are social programs started by the government, administered by the government. Your payments just like mine paid for those retired at that time, now current workers are paying our benefits, that is how the system works. You have to admit if you could find medical insurance with your preexisting conditions it would be costly. That medicare is there to cover you and your wife, a government program. It would not take long no matter how much you have put away, to have medical expenses eat up your nest egg. The two programs have been under attack from the right since they were started. If some conservatives have their way both will be allowed to implode without any badly needed reforms.

I know you don't care, as long as you get your benefits, nothing will exist after I'm gone.

P.S. By the way do you know when you have made it, when you no longer have to pay into Social Security or Medicare, if you have enough income to opt out of both programs. The point is all of your retirement income does not come from money you have earned, it is supplemented by a government programs you have paid into, that is the way it is supposed to work. If you want to get technical then the Civil Service Pension I receive was paid by me and my employer the U.S. Government. I paid 7 1/2 %of my pay check every month, and for every dollar I put in the government put in seven. At the end of my employment the money was used to buy an individual government administered annuity, indexed to inflation. It is a real separate account that is truly registered to me, my wife has regular Social Security, which I can't draw, even though I paid into the system. Of course Civil Service is no longer available, now it is FERS for Federal Employees.

Here is an idea why not Civil Service Retirement for all? Instead of the employer part of the retirement of an individual, have the government pay. Think about it employers always complain about paying the government for Social Security, they loot private company pension plans and then put the cost on government pension insurance. The accounts would be private if the individual and the government would be working together on retirement security. Naturally the business's would have to pay more to help the government cover the workers they used to.


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:18 am 
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Did it ever occur to anyone how haphazard our health and basic retirement systems are? They are based on old concepts that you are going to start work for a company and retire from that same company. Due to the nature of today's job situation to rely on the company for providing health coverage, or retirement benefits, is just not practical. Workers need to be paying into systems that are portable, as now workers change their employers several times during their work lifetime. Many companies have found ways not to pay workers the benefits they have earned over their careers with a company. Many workers let go just before they can collect, on the promises made to them. That is why I think it is important to have government programs in place to cover these two important items. That way workers can feel assured that if the company goes under, is bought out, or they are terminated in their late fifties, which has happened to many, they will not lose out. Currently both Social Security and Medicare fill these two holes, but they need to be updated and improved, so that future generations of workers, will get what's coming to them.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:07 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Did it ever occur to anyone how haphazard our health and basic retirement systems are? They are based on old concepts that you are going to start work for a company and retire from that same company. Due to the nature of today's job situation to rely on the company for providing health coverage, or retirement benefits, is just not practical. Workers need to be paying into systems that are portable, as now workers change their employers several times during their work lifetime. Many companies have found ways not to pay workers the benefits they have earned over their careers with a company. Many workers let go just before they can collect, on the promises made to them. That is why I think it is important to have government programs in place to cover these two important items. That way workers can feel assured that if the company goes under, is bought out, or they are terminated in their late fifties, which has happened to many, they will not lose out. Currently both Social Security and Medicare fill these two holes, but they need to be updated and improved, so that future generations of workers, will get what's coming to them.



On the one hand, stability is good (I mean, working all your life at the same enterprise). But in the 21st century, everything has become much more dynamic and it is normal to move to a new job if the conditions are better.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:52 pm 
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"i don't want to pay for any services that might inadvertently help somebody else"
*pays into social security*

"i don't want to pay for any services that might inadvertently help somebody else"
*pays into medicare/medicaid*

"all these socialists wanting to take my money"
*taking social security & medicare/medicaid*

Don't like socialist ideas?
Don't like socialist methods?
refuse all social security payments.
refuse all Medicare/Medicaid
Refuse to drive on roads
Refuse to utilize police
refuse to utilize the fire department
refuse to pay for the military
refuse to utilize public libraries
refuse to pay for the military
refuse all mail delivered through the postal service
refuse to cross a bridge
refuse to have your garbage collected
refuse to allow the US to be involved in any war
refuse farm subsidies
refuse the FBI
refuse the CIA
refuse the polio vaccine
refuse the EPArefuse to go to a museum
refuse to allow any schools
close all the prisons
close all major businesses like WalMart that take social programs
close the VA
close all public parks
shut down all government
stop flushing your toilet
never allow anything to go to court
(@$%&#!) the G.I. Bill
tear down Hoover Dam
close every zoo
shut down the Pentagon
forget the FDA
kill all healthcare for 9/11 workers
swine flu vaccine?
never go to a beach
forget the corporate bailouts
deal with the potholes
public transportation?
don't worry about street lights
close FEMA
DHS can go to hell
OSHA...forget that
The Lincoln Memorial. Mount Rushmore. The D.C. National Mall. All brought to you and maintained with your tax dollars.
USDA....nuff said
CVP....socialist
Dept of Education....Socialist
Secret Service...Socialist
DOJ...Socialist
National Weather Service...Socialist
White House...Socialist
Law...Laws and rules make our democracy possible. Remove these laws and you have sheer anarchy. Laws do not appear out of thin air. To have law, you need a government. You need elected lawmakers to make the laws and a government to implement and enforce them. Socialism is responsible for every law in this country. Without our government and lawmakers which exist thanks to socialism, there would be no laws. So the laws themselves, are enforced and implemented thanks to socialism.

welcome to the real world that Fox will never tell you about.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:38 am 
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I'd like to add a couple of things to your list...

• refuse your stimulus checks
• refuse your unemployment benefits

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:45 am 
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This all seems on the face so absurd. You pay into the system, your taxes, etc.etc.etc., and you expect nothing in return? Some don't want to face the fact that without government there is no protection for workers and their families, from big business exploiting the situation. If we are to proceed as a nation, reforms are badly needed, so that all will have a fair shot at the American Dream. Unless of course you like your present situation, and it can't be improved upon, like the top less than 1%.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:07 am 
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Alan B wrote:
I'd like to add a couple of things to your list...

• refuse your stimulus checks
• refuse your unemployment benefits

accepted and agreed sir.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:31 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
This all seems on the face so absurd. You pay into the system, your taxes, etc.etc.etc., and you expect nothing in return? Some don't want to face the fact that without government there is no protection for workers and their families, from big business exploiting the situation. If we are to proceed as a nation, reforms are badly needed, so that all will have a fair shot at the American Dream. Unless of course you like your present situation, and it can't be improved upon, like the top less than 1%.


What are the 6 functions of the government?

Here they are:

' To form a more perfect Union'
' To establish Justice'
' To insure domestic Tranquility'
' To provide for the common defense'
' To promote the general Welfare'
' To secure the Blessings of Liberty'


There is nothing in there about "providing welfare" only to provide defense.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:48 am 
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mrmarog wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
This all seems on the face so absurd. You pay into the system, your taxes, etc.etc.etc., and you expect nothing in return? Some don't want to face the fact that without government there is no protection for workers and their families, from big business exploiting the situation. If we are to proceed as a nation, reforms are badly needed, so that all will have a fair shot at the American Dream. Unless of course you like your present situation, and it can't be improved upon, like the top less than 1%.


What are the 6 functions of the government?

Here they are:

' To form a more perfect Union'
' To establish Justice'
' To insure domestic Tranquility'
' To provide for the common defense'
' To promote the general Welfare'
' To secure the Blessings of Liberty'


There is nothing in there about "providing welfare" only to provide defense.


What do you think the promoting the General Welfare means? It is the job of government to make sure all have an equal chance at success. How can there be any Tranquility if 99% of the population are living to support the greedy one percent? Our union is far from perfect that is why there are Red States that want to leave the Union, I say let them go, they are a drag on the rest of us that want to move forward.

P.S. Programs like Social Security, Medicare, do promote the General Welfare, and help to insure Domestic Tranquility, just like UBI would.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrmarog wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
This all seems on the face so absurd. You pay into the system, your taxes, etc.etc.etc., and you expect nothing in return? Some don't want to face the fact that without government there is no protection for workers and their families, from big business exploiting the situation. If we are to proceed as a nation, reforms are badly needed, so that all will have a fair shot at the American Dream. Unless of course you like your present situation, and it can't be improved upon, like the top less than 1%.


What are the 6 functions of the government?

Here they are:

' To form a more perfect Union'
' To establish Justice'
' To insure domestic Tranquility'
' To provide for the common defense'
' To promote the general Welfare'
' To secure the Blessings of Liberty'


There is nothing in there about "providing welfare" only to provide defense.


What do you think the promoting the General Welfare means? It is the job of government to make sure all have an equal chance at success. How can there be any Tranquility if 99% of the population are living to support the greedy one percent? Our union is far from perfect that is why there are Red States that want to leave the Union, I say let them go, they are a drag on the rest of us that want to move forward.

P.S. Programs like Social Security, Medicare, do promote the General Welfare, and help to insure Domestic Tranquility, just like UBI would.


It says PROMOTE not PROVIDE. Do you know the difference. Promote to me means educating, creating jobs, etc.

Promote meaning:
1. further the progress of (something, especially a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.

2. advance or raise (someone) to a higher position or rank.
"she was promoted to General Manager"


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:24 am 
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mrmarog wrote:

It says PROMOTE not PROVIDE. Do you know the difference. Promote to me means educating, creating jobs, etc.

Promote meaning:
1. further the progress of (something, especially a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.

2. advance or raise (someone) to a higher position or rank.
"she was promoted to General Manager"


Exactly when you are promoting you are setting the stage so that people have the means to succeed. That was what the G.I. bill was all about providing the means so military returning from our many wars could better themselves. Through college education, V.A. health system, home loans, etc.etc.etc. If we do this for our Veterans, and we are already giving out Corporate Welfare to Defense Contractors, and those in business, why not to the citizens, who pay the bulk of the taxes? It is all question of which you want to do make those richer that already are rich, or try and improve the lives of everyone? How much longer do you think workers are going to want to keep the situation like it is? Where an oligarchy in this country maintains control, the rest of us have to make do, and most likely fail.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:41 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrmarog wrote:

It says PROMOTE not PROVIDE. Do you know the difference. Promote to me means educating, creating jobs, etc.

Promote meaning:
1. further the progress of (something, especially a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.

2. advance or raise (someone) to a higher position or rank.
"she was promoted to General Manager"


Exactly when you are promoting you are setting the stage so that people have the means to succeed. That was what the G.I. bill was all about providing the means so military returning from our many wars could better themselves. Through college education, V.A. health system, home loans, etc.etc.etc. If we do this for our Veterans, and we are already giving out Corporate Welfare to Defense Contractors, and those in business, why not to the citizens, who pay the bulk of the taxes? It is all question of which you want to do make those richer that already are rich, or try and improve the lives of everyone? How much longer do you think workers are going to want to keep the situation like it is? Where an oligarchy in this country maintains control, the rest of us have to make do, and most likely fail.

Did you see what your example is? It is what "we used to do", but it is not what is being done or proposed today. Why? because we are heading towards socialism! Like it or not! Cali is going to require a Covid passport sooner than you think. What is next?


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