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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:21 am 
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I was talking to someone at The Eagles club about karaoke and told them make sure you hire someone who is operating legally otherwise you may risk a copyright infringement lawsuit. They said that they're not affected because they are a private club, so I would like to know...

Are clubs such as The Eagles, The Moose, VFW, Knights of Columbus, etc. exempt from paying PRO fees?

and also...

Can a club be sued for copyright infringement if their KJ is operating illegally?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:33 am 
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Yep, they have to pay PRO fees just like everyone else or they are just as much a target to be sued by publishers as anyone else - though not as common. Even private events - if they are held in a public area or site (like a hotel) still need to pay these fees - though these are harder to enforce, but has still been an occasional case.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:49 am 
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Alan B wrote:
I was talking to someone at The Eagles club about karaoke and told them make sure you hire someone who is operating legally otherwise you may risk a copyright infringement lawsuit. They said that they're not affected because they are a private club, so I would like to know...

Are clubs such as The Eagles, The Moose, VFW, Knights of Columbus, etc. exempt from paying PRO fees?

and also...

Can a club be sued for copyright infringement if their KJ is operating illegally?

While they claim to be a private club, I believe that inviting in the public for events like karaoke makes the event a public event which definitely opens up a can of worms.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Although they may require a membership of their regular customers, as soon as they start allowing the general public in they are then a PUBLIC VENUE and are required to pay their fees (Probably even if no general public is invited) and hence would be subject to potential investigation and lawsuits.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:49 pm 
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One can not even own a warehouse and have working employees present and broadcast radio without paying fees even if the general public is not allowed in. It enhances your business and goodness knows the league'l-a-b'eagles will have nun of that without compensational oversight. That's by their own letters of the louse.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:29 am 
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WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD THAT THE LOCAL VFW IS GOING TO BE SUED BECAUSE THEY HAD A PIRATE KJ HOST A SHOW AT THEIR CLUB? My guess would be highly unlikely. If one of these clubs would have been served with a law suit over the last ten years; I'm sure that we would have all heard about it.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:39 am 
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Lonnie, didn't an elk or moose lodge get hit by SC back about 5-6 years?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:01 pm 
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I have no idea if the Elks, Moose, KofColumbus are exempt from paying pro fees, ascap, bmi’s; but I come across this article/memo from the VFW Minnesota State Commander:

"Both ASCAP and BMI have recognized the exemption of VFW Posts where proper notice has been given by the Post that they meet the following exemption requirements:

1. The function wherein live music is performed must be limited to VFW and Auxiliary members and their bonafide guests and not open to the general public.

2. All profit, after paying reasonable costs of producing the performance, must be used for charitable purposes.

ASCAP/BMI INVOICES: Because ASCAP and BMI have no way of knowing if a Post meets the licensing exemption requirements of Public Law 97-366, posts may continue to receive Invoices for license fees, so long as Posts continue to meet the two following exemption requirements, they should return the invoices and write “Exempt under Public Law 97-366” on the invoice.

ASCAP and BMI have ‘stepped’ up their visits to Post Clubrooms and functions. Your Post MUST maintain a ‘Closed Door’ policy and patronage should be limited to Members and Bonafide Guests".


https://vfw5518.files.wordpress.com/200 ... s-2015.pdf

:lol: Last paragraph basically saying: “Non-member? No Enter!”. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:33 pm 
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NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS KIND OF THREAD AND WHAT SOUND CHOICE USED TO DO. Spread enough fear to make people think twice about entering the karaoke biz, FAKE NEWS!!! 90% OF KJs are pirates according to PEP anyway so it looks like the fear tactics are failing big time.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:54 am 
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8) I'm amending and updating my last statement. Under Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Law establishes the fair use doctrine by stating the use of a copyrighted work for comment, criticism, news reporting, teaching, research or scholarship is not considered a copyright infringement. but in determining whether the use meets that criteria, the section lists four factors that need to be considered, the first of which is the purpose and character of the copyrighted work's use, in particular whether the use is of a commercial or nonprofit educational purpose. But that doesn't mean simply not profiting from the use of a copyright work by itself qualifies it as fair use.

What I take away from this is yes, non profit organizations could be cited in the real world. On the other hand going after your local American Legion, Moose, Eagles, Elks or VFW, it would be a PR nightmare for any manu. Who wants to be the company that puts these non profit organizations out of business, that give back so much to the community? The impact market value is very slight, and is only a problem to those hosts trying to maintain their market share. The last company to go after non profits was CB before they imploded, even SC decided not to go there.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:28 am 
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Brian A wrote:

:lol: Last paragraph basically saying: “Non-member? No Enter!”. :lol:



8) This is all well and good Brian, but you know and I know that guests can be signed in by members, and that it is practically impossible to have just members attending a Post function.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:24 am 
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our local elks lodge lets a guest come in only if accompanied by a current and in good standing member and then they can only check out the club 3 time then they have to join or leave. same with our local eagles.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:47 am 
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8) There are no such limitations with the VFW or the American Legion. The only rule is when you leave your guest has to leave also, and that you are responsible for their conduct while at the post.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:34 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Brian A wrote:

:lol: Last paragraph basically saying: “Non-member? No Enter!”. :lol:



8) This is all well and good Brian, but you know and I know that guests can be signed in by members, and that it is practically impossible to have just members attending a Post function.

Re-phrased: “Non-sponsored or non-bonafide guests not allowed.”

I think the key word here is “bonafide guests” (adj: in good faith; without deception or fraud).

When bringing guests, members must be aware of the importance of the VFW Commander ref: ascap/bmi / vfw exemption. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:23 am 
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I've been a bona fide guest two times for karaoke at one local VA, had to be accompanied by a member and sign in. I'm pretty sure the host was a pirate, but not definitely sure.

I've also been a customer three times for karaoke at another, different local VA, where they were letting anyone in. That host was absolutely legit, playing only original manufacturer discs.

In the first case, the chapter would be exempt from any litigation about PRO fees (see Brian's post) but could theoretically be sued by a producer for using stolen music.

In the second case, that chapter could be sued by ASCAP and BMI if they were not paying their PRO fees. But they shouldn't be sued by any producer because their music was all legal (even if the performance of it was not).

We live in such a nice, simple world, don't we? :)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:45 am 
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could they be or will they be? that is the question. With so many pirate KJs taking over the industry; it should be like shooting fish in a barrel yet we hardly ever hear about PEP winning any recent cases. It's like putting up "BEWARE OF DOG" signs on your property but there are no dogs. No one is afraid of the big bad wolf any longer. Most of the legit hosts have reported their pirate competitors to the Big Bad Wolf over the years and nothing has happened. Sure, they scared few KJs into buying the GEM Series to keep PEP off their backs but those poor souls were few and far between. Look around. The pirates are thriving.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:47 am 
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I've been to many different VFW halls and American legion halls over the years for karaoke and I never had to sign anything to get in.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:04 am 
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KJKILLER wrote:
90% OF KJs are pirates according to PEP anyway so it looks like the fear tactics are failing big time.

I would say that it's more like 95%. And I believe that to be true. At least 95% of all karaoke hosts are pirates and that's a fact!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Alan B wrote:
KJKILLER wrote:
90% OF KJs are pirates according to PEP anyway so it looks like the fear tactics are failing big time.

I would say that it's more like 95%. And I believe that to be true. At least 95% of all karaoke hosts are pirates and that's a fact!
Fact? You have actual numbers or just going by what someone says? How do you figure it's closer to 95% just in your own figure?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:54 pm 
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KJKILLER wrote:
could they be or will they be? that is the question. With so many pirate KJs taking over the industry; it should be like shooting fish in a barrel yet we hardly ever hear about PEP winning any recent cases.

I thought I said "could".

Of maybe all the producers, PEP was always in the weakest position to sue anybody, because they sold off their copyrights to Stingray first and tried litigating second. You can't blame them for not winning the war when they went into it so poorly armed. Only had they retained those copyrights might it have turned into "shooting fish in a barrel" but wishing it had will never make it so.

Completely ignoring the karaoke aspect of it altogether, and suing for copyright infringement over just the pirated audio recordings, was the route more producers should have taken. Bootlegging recordings someone else made and kept the copyright to has always been illegal, cut, dried and simple. You can forget the lyrics and logos and trade-dress, because without the music a pirate would have no use for any of it anyway.

Even "illegal" producers could have legitimately used that line of attack, because cover recordings need no permission to be made and the copyrights for those audio recordings legitimately belong to whomever made them. But again, wishing it had happened will never make it so.


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