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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:54 am 
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This is a question for James Harrington – because Chris Avis apparently won't ask him directly:

If Chris Avis takes all of his downloaded songs and places them on a server, and "moves the file" from one of his karaoke locations to another over the net, is it legal to do so?

His logic is simple: if you take a disc to karaoke bar #1, and sing a song, then leave that bar and go to another bar with the same disc and sing the song – or a different song off that disk – wouldn't that be the same?

He desperately is looking for validation and my guess is that he then only has to purchase 1 song file... and share it with his 10 or so different systems on karaoke nights.

For some unknown reason, he won't ask Harrington directly if this is legal or not, so I'll ask it here. While Harrington claims he does not read – nor will he respond to any of my posts – I'll leave it up to someone else here to ask him.

If Mr. Harrington claims it is legal to do so, I just might take a whole bunch of systems out of mothballs and plant them around the city as well...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:45 am 
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as long as you're not playing the same song at two locations simultaneously, you should be okay. Jim would have to have an investigator at every location marking down what time every song was played. LOL Download the song from the server and then delete it from the laptop after it is sung to free up the song for the next person who might want to sing it. Jim's not going to go after his main cheerleader anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:38 am 
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I think it would both be extremely difficult for the karaoke operator to guarantee that any given disc was not being played simultaneously, but also very difficult for a prosecutor to reach the burden of proof that both were being played simultaneously, short of having multiple investigators at multiple shows logging tracks played.

HOWEVER, no one is out there prosecuting multi-riggers for this circumstance, so it's not particularly relevant.

When SoundChoice sues the multirigger for displaying their logo at each of their 4 shows, and that multirigger produces one set of discs, he's going to be in the clear for 1 of the 4 shows and be prosecuted on the other 3 because he does not have 4 disc sets. The fact that he's not playing tracks simultaneously does not factor in to this "trademark confusion" strategy of lawsuits.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:15 am 
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Karaoke Croaker wrote:
Jim's not going to go after his main cheerleader anyway.


I'm not sure whether you're confused or just speaking ironically. Mr. Staley isn't my cheerleader.

Since I can't (actually won't) read what the original poster said, I have no idea what you might be talking about, but your response seems to be "if I don't get caught, it's OK," which is the criminal's rationale.

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Since there has been some confusion:
1. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. Statements I make here about legal issues are for informational purposes only.
2. I am an officer of Phoenix Entertainment Partners, but my opinions on matters not involving Phoenix's business are my own and may not reflect the opinions of the company.
3. If you have questions you'd like answered officially, you are welcome to email me at jim@phxep.com or send me a private message here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:24 am 
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TopherM wrote:
I think it would both be extremely difficult for the karaoke operator to guarantee that any given disc was not being played simultaneously, but also very difficult for a prosecutor to reach the burden of proof that both were being played simultaneously, short of having multiple investigators at multiple shows logging tracks played.

HOWEVER, no one is out there prosecuting multi-riggers for this circumstance, so it's not particularly relevant.


We often send out multiple investigator teams to simultaneous shows, and they do log the tracks played when they investigate.

And we have actually prosecuted one of these cases--successfully, in fact.

TopherM wrote:
When SoundChoice sues the multirigger for displaying their logo at each of their 4 shows, and that multirigger produces one set of discs, he's going to be in the clear for 1 of the 4 shows and be prosecuted on the other 3 because he does not have 4 disc sets. The fact that he's not playing tracks simultaneously does not factor in to this "trademark confusion" strategy of lawsuits.


That's not correct. A multi-rigger who has one set of discs and four simultaneous shows is on the hook for 4 systems, not 3. None of the space-shifting is legal in that circumstance. 1:4 is legally the same as 0:4, not 1:1 plus 0:3.

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Since there has been some confusion:
1. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. Statements I make here about legal issues are for informational purposes only.
2. I am an officer of Phoenix Entertainment Partners, but my opinions on matters not involving Phoenix's business are my own and may not reflect the opinions of the company.
3. If you have questions you'd like answered officially, you are welcome to email me at jim@phxep.com or send me a private message here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:25 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:
And we have actually prosecuted one of these cases--successfully, in fact.

Sort of :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:25 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Since I can't (actually won't) read what the original poster said, I have no idea what you might be talking about, but your response seems to be "if I don't get caught, it's OK," which is the criminal's rationale.

Of course he reads my posts... how do you think he got here?
Quote:
For some unknown reason, he (Chris Avis) won't ask Harrington directly if this is legal or not, so I'll ask it here. While Harrington claims he does not read – nor will he respond to any of my posts – I'll leave it up to someone else here to ask him.

Anyone?

Bueller?

Anyone?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:40 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Karaoke Croaker wrote:
Jim's not going to go after his main cheerleader anyway.


I'm not sure whether you're confused or just speaking ironically. Mr. Staley isn't my cheerleader.


The only confusion is on your part (because you have stated you do not read any of C. Staley's posts). No, Mr. Staley is NOT your cheerleader (like anyone needs to even say that). The reference was to Chris Avis.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:20 am 
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Used to be to LOCK RECORDS where the record may only be accessed by one person. Once that person is done with a record, that record is released to be acted upon by another.

I'm sure that any programmer can add a "TAG" to a requested song where it would NOT be available until it was "UN-TAGED."

It would be important to note the time and location of usage in a LOG FILE in order to Protect yourself from the likes of the ambulance chasers.

Concerning any DISC usage, one could have a partner with ALL the Discs at his location and STREAM video and sound from a CDG player so that the ambulance chasers couldn't scream MEDIA-SHIFTING...LMMFAO...thereby, again, ONLY NEEDING one set of discs.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:42 am 
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Talk about fake news! Jim obviously isn't paying attention. No one here would think that I was referring to Chip as a Sound Choice Cheerleader. Jim still tries to make people think that they are in Jeopardy when there is the smallest chance that they would be found guilty of anything. He has to keep the fear alive so there might be some low hanging fruit that he can harvest. There will always be some suckers out there who fall for his line of crap. That's what lawyers do.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:45 am 
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Jim must have someone who deletes all of Chip's posts before they let Jim use the computer? LOL


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:45 pm 
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just because someone isn't reading a specific post, doesn't mean that a thread won't show up if someone else posts in it


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:31 pm 
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So Jim....I have a question for you ;)

If Chris Avis takes all of his downloaded songs and places them on a server, and "moves the file" from one of his karaoke locations to another over the net, is it legal to do so?

Thank you for a reply :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:20 pm 
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johnreynolds wrote:
So Jim....I have a question for you ;)

If Chris Avis takes all of his downloaded songs and places them on a server, and "moves the file" from one of his karaoke locations to another over the net, is it legal to do so?

Thank you for a reply :D



he won't answer that as soundchoice doesn't do downloads.

And I don't know why you guys look to PEP's attorneys for answers. his answers are "his opinion" and are always his interpretation of the law as he would argue it in court in favor for PEP's best interest!

why would he want to give you information that could hurt any chance he has in court! that's why he is vague in his answers or just won't answer the question at all!

he has no care for you as a person and offers no personal help with legal matters.

and a lot of what he says are just scare tactics to make a sale for the company that signs his big fat checks!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:59 pm 
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mightywiz wrote:
johnreynolds wrote:
So Jim....I have a question for you ;)

If Chris Avis takes all of his downloaded songs and places them on a server, and "moves the file" from one of his karaoke locations to another over the net, is it legal to do so?

Thank you for a reply :D



he won't answer that as soundchoice doesn't do downloads.
Well, this is where I'd argue with you:
The gem series is a digital format... that has to be "downloaded" to your laptop and because the file on the disc it arrived on can't be erased, the download is in fact, a "downloaded copy." And the HELP license covers ANY method of acquistion --- including downloads --- that they "license as original" remember? These are downloads on a de facto basis.
So that's another distribution channel that they approved of and license even though they don't operate it themselves, they still receive the financial benefit of downloaded tracks.
mightywiz wrote:
And I don't know why you guys look to PEP's attorneys for answers. his answers are "his opinion" and are always his interpretation of the law as he would argue it in court in favor for PEP's best interest!
Well, the question actually originated with Chris Avis on facebook. He has been canvassing all the KJ's there for "legal opinions" and I suggested he ask Harrington since he has a contractual relationship with PEP, Harrington is usually pretty helpful with his controlled licensees. Avis however has adamantly avoided asking Harrington for some unknown reason and vomits vitriol at the very suggestion.

So, I figured if Avis (PEP's most vocal cheerleader) doesn't have the "nads" to ask him, I'd step in and do what he's apparently afraid to do himself. I'm not afraid of Harrington, I have no contractual relationship with PEP so he can't vindictively punish me or my venues in any way.

And now it appears that Harrington doesn't have the "nads" to offer a single pearl of his highly-educated, legal wisdom to any karaoke host on the planet. (So much for always wanting to do the "right thing" right?)

mightywiz wrote:
why would he want to give you information that could hurt any chance he has in court! that's why he is vague in his answers or just won't answer the question at all!

he has no care for you as a person and offers no personal help with legal matters.

and a lot of what he says are just scare tactics to make a sale for the company that signs his big fat checks!
You have a valid point.

And one option that might not have been considered: Harrington uses the "I won't read and won't answer Mr. Staley" as an excuse because his boss may have instructed him to shut up.

Let us pray.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:37 pm 
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johnreynolds wrote:
So Jim....I have a question for you ;)

If Chris Avis takes all of his downloaded songs and places them on a server, and "moves the file" from one of his karaoke locations to another over the net, is it legal to do so?

Thank you for a reply :D


Our position has always been that 1:1 correspondence means that you must own a sufficient number of originals that you *could* accomplish what you are doing using original discs. You can only have a disc at one location at a time, so if whatever system you're using requires that the tracks be at two locations at the same time, you need two discs for that purpose.

We would not have a problem with a central server system that locked out the contents of any selected disc from other locations for the balance of that night, as long as that setup were fully disclosed to us.

The main thing is that if you are going to do something unusual, you should talk with us. We are very accommodating when we're consulted. When we're not consulted, not so much.

Chris has my phone number, and he knows that we work with people who work with us. I'm sure he'll call or email when the time comes.

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Since there has been some confusion:
1. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. Statements I make here about legal issues are for informational purposes only.
2. I am an officer of Phoenix Entertainment Partners, but my opinions on matters not involving Phoenix's business are my own and may not reflect the opinions of the company.
3. If you have questions you'd like answered officially, you are welcome to email me at jim@phxep.com or send me a private message here.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:42 am 
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" the contents of an entire disc to one location for the balance of the night?"

So what this really means is; "No" Because it circumvents his opportunity for more licenses and contracts and I'm sure Avis knew that and that's why he was so against asking him.

It does not explain the situation of the person with the "Help (pirate) License" because they get their "content" one track at a time...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Do whatever you want until you get served with legal papers telling you to stop. Then go to court and fight back. PEP has been losing more often than they've been winning lately.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:11 am 
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Yeah, Avis's idea is nothing new.

I posted instructions 5 years ago describing exactly how to do this...
in roughly 10 minutes....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24502&p=339425&hilit=netdrive#p339425

So if you think Avis's idea is somehow new and innovative, it ain't:
chrisavis wrote:
I have considered doing EXACTLY what Chip suggested albeit with different software. End result is that I host my own private cloud that only I have access to.

As for getting permission....what permission is needed? I certified a karaoke system. If that system resides at my home, and I simply broadcast it a TV/Display and that display happens to be 40 miles away, there really isn't an issue that I can see. In fact, I have even thought about simply doing remote KJ where I am a disc loader for multiple concurrent shows and broadcasting the feed to the remote location.

There are probably way around buying 6 sets of discs for 6 unique concurrent shows if you are very creative and have some technical chops. And considering that the purchas of the music can easily be the single biggest expense for starting up, it makes sense to think creatively.

That is what Sound Choice is doing. They won't sue for copyright infringement so they are suing for Trademark infringement. Essentially working a technicality. I see no reason why we can't work them as well.

-Chris

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:25 am 
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No definitive answer. Has to weigh response to include fear factor. That's why Avis does not ask.

Geometry step > If a=b and b=c, then a=c.

I worked several decades for at&t. I had more than a couple managers tell us that perception is what mattered most for a business already viable. Whether it be from customers or potential customers.

SC/PEP/SCE is viable as far as perception goes. They have mastered and continually redefine the FEAR part of perception. FEAR is what attorneys rely on.

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