Karaoke Forums

I know of a venue that received a letter from PEP regarding them registering for the Safe Harbor program. I advised them to go ahead and do so.

Further, they have terminated the KJ that was working at the venue. Not certain whether or not he was running legal.

This venue has now contacted me regarding running the show at their venue.

I am registered with the Sound Choice Safe Harbor program. Reg # 15CA428521

I have several SC discs and many more Chartbuster discs - However, I do not use them at my shows as I do not wish to carry them around with me or potentially have them damaged.

Additionally, I currently do not have the funds to pay $250 each (SC & CB) for an audit or wish to take the time to Rip/burn them to my hard-drive in order to get certified.

Since at the present time, I do not use SC or CB at my shows.

MY QUESTION:
Could this prevent continued trouble for the venue and/or me?

_________________
Phill Cross
Webmaster, Host Provider & Part-Time “Technical” Problem Solver

KJ / MC


services provided by:
CROSS WEB TECH

since you do not use them at the show there is no issue. if you wanted to use them you either have to carry the discs with you and play from them, or get certified or the venue and you will be breaking the terms of their safe harbor application.

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Thank you for the reply - That's what I thought but I wanted to be certain. I'm hoping the @HarringtonLaw will confirm.

- - - - - -
I often play the discs SC or CB supplied by the customers. As I do not own plus I do not rip/burn these but just play the customers disc.

Sub-Question:
What is the venues or my liability?

There shouldn't be any but I wish to confirm this also...
- - - - - - -

_________________
Phill Cross
Webmaster, Host Provider & Part-Time “Technical” Problem Solver

KJ / MC


services provided by:
CROSS WEB TECH

You will never be sued by us for playing SC or CB from an original disc, whether you own it or it's a customer disc.

If you want to play from other than original discs, you need to get a license.

For SC, that means certification, a GEM series license, or a HELP license.

For CB, the only currently available process is CB Registration, which nominally costs $50 per system. However, if you only have 1-9 CD+G discs (i.e., fewer than 10, and no non-CD+Gs) on your system, we will waive the fee.

I knew that much... - I'm too lazy to carry around my discs...


I only play from originals, when/if I use discs at all...


I have around 20 SC discs currently - I don't have them on my hard-drive until I can afford the $250 certification...


I have the entire CB Essential 450 (1-10) plus several hundred other discs that I have purchased many still unwrapped. These are not currently on my hard-drive either.

_________________
Phill Cross
Webmaster, Host Provider & Part-Time “Technical” Problem Solver

KJ / MC


services provided by:
CROSS WEB TECH

Hello!!! is anyone home. Come on man, You have the entire set of CB disks. Pay the 50.00 and be done with it, If you have more than 10 SC disks just pay the 250.00 and get certified. It's not like it's a recurring fee. Don't deprive the venue or your singers from enjoying Quality tracks.

Call pep and get the same deal they offered me. GEM set payment plan along with "Help" license. This is a very good option for you and very affordable. Your singers will love you along with the venue.

In my opinion, the Safe Harbor program is just a way for PEP to control the entertainment.

Read the fine print..... If PEP even "suspects" that a KJ is illegal, the venue has 10 days to fire them and/or replace them.... or be sued.

I wouldn't sign that on a bet, but your mileage might be different. And don't tell venues in Phoenix that you have the brand or signed any kind of deal with the brand.... Paradigm learned that the extremely hard way.

Harrington claims he wouldn't sue someone running discs... but he already has, and more than once. He simply shifts the blame to others he also claims to be in charge of... go figure.

The safest bet is not to use the aging brand(s) and sign nothing from them. They'll eventually fade away when there's nothing left and no one to sue. I've been doing that for over 6 years.... with ZERO ill-effects and the venues appreciate that I'm looking after their well-being and protecting them from being sued.

Where many KJ's are struggling to make $100 per night, I've been making almost double that, on a weeknight for almost 20 years and that's without instant downloads, library phone apps, lighting or a zillion-song library.

(Even digitracks can't use most of their own library commercially and it looks like a fire sale.... again. PEP claims it can't get a decent license to save their butts. But magically, KSF from Finland has none of those problems... so what does that tell you?)

I was unaware they were now offering HELP in Canada. Last time I asked i was told it would be quite a while before it happened, if ever.

good to know

-James

Just highlighting this based on your recent defense of a KJ who chose to not to take any action at all which resulted in he and his venues being sued.

_________________
-Chris

Safe Harbor is a way for PEP to gather information about the way in which karaoke operators use, or do not use, Sound Choice-branded karaoke tracks, and to advise venues about infringement concerns so they can avoid being sued for that infringement.

We have no interest in "controlling the entertainment" except that we want to make sure that our licensing policies are being followed.



From the Safe Harbor agreement, paragraph 6:

If we determine that a host you have registered with us is not operating according to our media-shifting policy or any aspect of federal or state law, we will notify you of our determination. The safe harbor provisions will terminate 30 days after that notification unless (a) you terminate your relationship with the host, (b) the host comes into compliance with our media-shifting policy as part of a settlement agreement, or (c) we determine that the host was compliant and our initial determination was in error. You must confirm to us, in writing, that you have terminated your relationship with the host, if that is your method of maintaining the safe harbor.

So, let's see:

You say it's 10 days, and it's actually 30 days.

You say that if we "even 'suspect' that a KJ is illegal," the venue has to fire them. In actuality, that requires a determination that the KJ is operating outside our policies or otherwise illegally.

You say that they have to fire or replace the KJ. In actuality, they can protect themselves by firing the pirate KJ, getting the host to comply with our policies, or show us that the host was actually compliant and that we made a mistake.

How many times do you have to be wrong about things that are easily verified before people will stop listening to you?



It happened one time. (So that's yet another time you've been wrong.) When we found out about the situation, we took steps immediately to deal with it.

The intent of my original post was not to cause or create an argument, but to gather some advice.

I appreciate the information supplied.

While I may not completely agree with some of the recent activities by PEP. I just want to avoid any potential troubles for me and my venues.

The best way to prevent this IMHO is to be upfront and straightforward.

Like I stated - I currently do not use SC or CB at my shows. I am planning on getting certified, once I have saved enough $$ to pay the fees.

I presently have over 60K songs with over 5K in discs - not including SC or CB. Plus, I am constantly purchasing new music via PartyTyme, Karaoke-Version, SBI & Zoom.

_________________
Phill Cross
Webmaster, Host Provider & Part-Time “Technical” Problem Solver

KJ / MC


services provided by:
CROSS WEB TECH

@Phil Cross

The CB registration was actually pretty cool. For $50 it was worth the peace of mind even though I have less than 100 CB disks at the moment. I did it for the country stuff.
Ya gotta pick your battles wisely..

_________________
Purple Frog Karaoke Cuz we all feel odd and love to "croak"

As are most of us. If SC offered downloads, i'd gladly give my money to them as well.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I did the CB registration. It was easy, and cheap. I will not have anything to do with the SC brand. My singers are fine with it. That includes those who have been raised on SC. A friend of mine passed his show down to me, because he got a new day job, and he can't work week nights anymore. He is a SC user. I have kept his singers, without ANY SC. And now, many of the SC only songs are starting to be released by others, so SC is becoming more and more irrelevant, around my area. My venues are protected FROM PEP activity, my singers are happy, I am happy, and I keep building my business and my reputation.


I second that, Lon. That is about the ONLY way I would add SC to my to my inventory.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Big whoop. 20 days difference, and this makes a big difference how?

Ever seen a sign at a bar that says; "Voted Best Pizza In Town!"? The bar itself made that "determination" that they would do the voting and tallying.... "Determination" is a purposely vague term used to your advantage - period.

Or what? You'll sue them right? So what you've really done is forgotten to add the last TWO options below:
#1. firing the pirate KJ,
#2. getting the host to comply with our policies, (which requires a contract)
#3. or show us that the host was actually compliant and that we made a mistake
#4. Forbid the brands from being used on the premises or,
#5. Stop karaoke entertainment altogether.

All these options with the exception of #4 & 5, require that the establishment do work as your policeman or defense attorney for the KJ and are in some cases, more involvement than they care to have so options 4 & 5 are free and guarantee that they will not be sued by a trolling company like yours.

We see that in a number of cases, the club has been completely and permanently "cured" from running karaoke at all...

I see that basic math has eluded you once again and you have failed (or more likely refused) to count past the primary number of 1 because;
#1. it wasn't the only time and,
#2. it took over 3 months to clear up... I guess that's your definition of "immediately." But then again, you didn't say "clear up" at all you said "deal with it" which doesn't mean much does it?

You never did much homework did you? What a laugh.

Because one is the truth and the other is not. If you'll lie about that, why should we believe you about anything else?



It's not a vague term. Our determination must be based on facts, which the KJ provides as part of his registration process.



This is actually a good thing, because no venue deserves to use pirate KJs. There is an oversupply of karaoke entertainment in the first place. If a venue quits having karaoke because it can't have pirate karaoke, that's fine by us, and it should be fine with you, too.



Excellent. That's a feature, not a bug.



Yeah, you keep saying that, and it's still not true.



So, let's see...you ridicule my use of the term immediately because it took six weeks (not 3 months) to get the lawsuit dismissed, yet, as you concede, I did not say that it was resolved immediately. But since you've brought it up, here's the timeline:

12/24 - I learned that the defendant was claiming to play from discs. 10 minutes later I was on the phone to Kurt even though he and I were both on vacation.
12/27 - We finally made contact with the investigator, who promised to provide us with information about the case.
12/28 - I made arrangements to visit the KJ in person in California on 1/7 during a previously planned trip. Because of my schedule it was not possible to get there sooner.
1/7 - I met individually with the KJ for over 2 hours to discuss his operation, view his equipment, and assess whether a mistake had been made in suing him. From the parking lot of the venue where I met him, I spoke to Kurt via telephone and recommended an immediate instruction to the attorney to dismiss the lawsuit against him. Kurt immediately telephoned and emailed the attorney with that instruction.

So, it took me 10 minutes to initiate action on this case, even though I was on vacation around the holidays. It took 2 weeks to set up an in-person visit, again around holidays, and after that visit, it took us about 15 minutes to generate instructions to the attorney to fix it with an immediate dismissal.

The fact that the attorney in question was slow to execute our instructions is irrelevant. She turned out not to be very ethical in her handling of our cases, but how that's on us (in your opinion), rather than on her, I'll never know.

And, once again, in case you didn't catch it, it's the ONLY time that's happened, period.

Interesting that you'd focus on something as inconsequential as a number of days... because if that's all you can complain about, the rest must be true. Thanks.

Which means that your "determination" is based only on a KJ signing a contract (registration) with you, which is crap and you know that. If the KJ refuses to sign, your "determination" is that they must be illegal and you sue the venue. Gotcha. Exactly a confirmation of the "Best Pizza In Town" scenario.

Not based on the parameters of your "determination" above.

No venue "deserves" to be forced to be your policeman under the threat of legal action either.

Even for your "certified" KJ's that can no longer get a foot in the door? Yeah, that's "a feature" alright.... Must be a feature of your "scorched earth policy."

Sure it is. But you insist on denying it which is not the truth. If you want some help, send me a check and I'll tell you which file in your office you need to look at. (All others can PM me for the defendant's name.)

Really? Wow! It takes some balls to outright lie about something that can be so easily verified through public records.

Your timeline begins in December? How friggin' long of a vacation were you taking because the lawsuit was filed in OCTOBER.... and it wasn't voluntarily dismissed until the end of JANUARY.... A total of 108 days while your cheerleaders and his competitors ripped his reputation to shreds...

Don't say that you "didn't know about it" because YOU were "lead counsel" for your client. Don't make excuses for APS when they worked under the contract that your client agreed to. Excuses, excuses, excuses.... Your failure to monitor your lawsuits when you are the "lead counsel" is your failure to do your job, period.

To this day, I've not seen a single malpractice suit against the "slow attorney" you claimed kept thousands of dollars... So there must be more truth in there somewhere. A complaint to the bar obviously has meant nothing.

And you've dropped the lawsuit against APS for over $100,000 for "lack of interest" on your part. That certainly would have gone a long way to new production...

Ok so I have a question in regards to people who have settled with you and the safe harbor program.

I've been checking to see if my friend or the venue they worked at are listed (they aren't). Now what happens if someone comes in and "tags" the venue/KJ again for a lawsuit (they haven't, yet) what would be the rights of the venue with a KJ who settled thier case that's not listed by PEP in any way?

Can the venue still have issues?

I'm assuming that once you've settled with a KJ, you get them and the venue(s) off the radar at least as far as SC product is concerned.

Sorry, didn't see these questions.

I'm really not sure what you mean by "tags the venue/KJ again for a lawsuit." Even if someone reported that venue or KJ to us, our investigators and attorneys know the status of the KJs and venues that have been sued.

A venue that is employing a KJ who is licensed need not worry about being sued based on the actions of the KJ, whether that KJ appears in our directory or not. (There are several reasons why a KJ who has settled with us might not be listed in our directory yet.)

A venue that has signed up for Safe Harbor and informed us who their KJ is (or KJs are) need not worry about being sued unless and until we advise them that their KJ is unlicensed.

Otherwise, a venue that makes use of unlicensed KJs (who use unlicensed Sound Choice tracks) does so at the risk of being sued.

When we settle with a KJ, there are two components to the settlement: (1) Resolving the issue of past infringement, and (2) Making a plan for future use of Sound Choice tracks. The options for future use are (a) become a GEM series licensee, (b) become a HELP licensee, (c) get certified based on existing Sound Choice discs, (d) discontinue the use of non-original Sound Choice tracks, or (e) go out of business entirely.

Any venue that uses an unlicensed KJ who plays Sound Choice tracks can have "issues." If the venue complies with Safe Harbor, those issues are minimal at best.

Good to know.

So they would need to do a second audit after the lawsuit one? They have already marked their CDs accordingly.