Karaoke Forums

I would be extremely happy to see something like KAPA UK be allowed and especially if it is an absolute authority as to a host's legal standing..... in other words if you (KJ's) are a "paying member you will not be sued for any reason" pertaining to copyrights or intellectual property rights.

My level of resources has nothing to do with it. Piracy impacts me exactly the same way it does you.

Actually, I would say it impacts me more because I care about it more than you do. I have more locations that I have to defend against pirate operators. I have to fight harder at more locations to justify my rates. I have to work my (@$%&#!) off to find affordable, quality content to support my operations. I have a LOT more to lose.

Regardless, your attitude (and of many, many others) that it isn't your problem contributes greatly to the problem itself. People like you want everyone else to shoulder the burden of resolving the problem. The problem you have consistently said doesn't impact you when you know it does. You struggle with rates just like everyone else does but you don't want to do anything to try to change that.

It is a selfish attitude.

I am not trying to berate you or offend you. I like you. We have spoken on the phone. In spite of your attitude about all of this, I find you to be a likeable person. I just get frustrated that you and others seem to be so wrapped up in just your little world that you feel should be insulated from the real problems that affect you and every other fan of karaoke. You and others don't seem to be able to look past your next pay day when there is a long view that will provide much better rewards.

All of us - the collective community of karaoke music producers, karaoke hosts, and karaoke enthusiasts - should want to reduce piracy. This can only have a positive impact on the industry.

It will reduce the cost of acquiring music.

Less piracy means less losses to the providers. They can drop their prices and remain profitable. It could potentially reduce the cost to create the content in the first place and further reduce retail pricing. If the cost to acquire music goes down, our profit margins as KJ's go up. It also has a self-sustaining effect - reduce cost, less reason to pirate. But the process has to reach a critical mass for this to become a reality.

It will improve relations with rights holders.

Karaoke, despite its popularity, is viewed as a net loss by the right holders because of the rampant piracy. They withhold the rights to allow it to be made in part because they aren't going to make any money on it. To be fair, the uptick in streaming has negatively impacted this as well. But that is another long post. Demonstrate to the rights holders that they too can be profitable and they will embrace it.

It could lead to more content providers delivering more karaoke music.

If relations improve and the cost to create is reduced, we will see more companies producing content. More companies = more competition = better pricing for consumers.


I can go on, but those are the big points. Working together just to make the above happen will make all the difference any of us want.


One last thing to point out. For all the hate - yes....HATE - that some have for what Sound Choice does, they are the ONLY company doing anything about it. While I don't agree with everything they have done or even do now, one thing they did do correctly was the GEM set.

I spent an hour yesterday trying to find the GEM for download at iRC and Torrent sites. I didn't find it. That isn't to say it isn't out there, but I couldn't find it easily. The program of leasing the GEM, knowing who has one, and tracking all of this seems to have been enough to prevent people from dumping it online. That program costs money. Money that right now, only GEM holders are bearing the weight of. I am not complaining about it, just pointing out that those of us supporting Sound Choice and buying GEMs, and following their policies have managed to prevent the widespread distribution of GEM tracks online. I am proud to be part of that little group.

The more people that support efforts like this, the greater impact we will have on the industry as a whole.

Those that aren't willing to do so, should get the F out of the business because they are selfishly holding all of us down.

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-Chris

There will be pushback on things like this from bar owners. They don't like somebody telling them who they can hire and who they can't. Especially when it's not a legal entity. I don't have a solution to the problem but I don't think this is it either. Remember when SC and CB were backing KIAA? Where are they now? For that matter, where is the new association that was started in NC by William?

Chris, I am telling you that getting rid of piracy around here would do NOTHING for the rates. These people do not want to pay $250 a night. What you have to understand about this area is that it is a small town, that is only full in the winter. You can get higher rates from October through April. The rest of the time, the area is a ghost town, with only the locals. Now, while my weekends kick (@$%&#!), and we are full to capacity, the rest of the week is DEAD,so they can't afford to pay me that kind of money, because the weekend take makes up for the week. That is how ALL the bars are around here. My Tuesday night show is hit or miss.

As for the GEM,it's great that you people got them, and they are safe from piracy.But NOW they are going to SIGNIFICANTLY raise the price of them. Now they are going to make it harder for us to buy them, so your thought about song prices going down is wrong, well at least as far as SC is concerned.

I like you, too, Chris, but I am not leaving the business. I like what I do, too much to leave. I just don't need any extra expenses.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Chris, why would anyone be downloading the GEM Tracks ONLINE to some Torrents Site? All that the GEM Tracks are, are old SC tracks from the Star Series, Spotlight Series, Artists Series, etc..., of which, ALL of those SC tracks are already out there. Why would anyone waste their time putting the exact same tracks out there a 2nd time?

But here goes a question..... Does one have to be a (paying) Member in order to be able to be a working KJ? It's one thing that they may be an authority as to a KJ's Legal Standing (as you just put it), but it's another thing to be an Authoritative Figure who is dictating who a Venue can or can not hire, and thus BLACKLIST ANY (NON-PIRATE) KJ who is not a member of KAPA UK (or USA, if one ever forms (again)). I could see someone like SmoothEdge69 being very upset (more-so), if he had to pay for a membership (on top of already paying his taxes), just so he could earn his living as a KJ.

Thank you, my point exactly. I do not WANT, or NEED an added expense. I don't want to hear it's the cost of doing business. No it's not. It is the cost of being ALLOWED to run my business, as I see fit. I do not NEED someone watching over me, to do the right thing. Hey, I could liken it to religion. I do not NEED the Bible to tell me that murder is wrong.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

This effort is akin to unionization, but with one big difference: it is NOT being organized by the workers, but by manufacturers! Now, I will not pretend to know the legal position of such an endeavor in the UK, but I am relatively certain that such an effort in the US would not be sustainable, given how unionization works here...

What about $175/night? or $185/night. Baby steps. It took me 3 years to be able to start getting about $150/night



You got me there. The only way to fix that is....move. If you choose to operate a business that has a ceiling placed on it by the geography and demographics, then you know what you max pay will be. I am fortunate that I don't have a ceiling in my area.



This will be for a limited time because there aren't many GEM's left anyway. James has said that publicly. Whether that is 100 or 1000 is anyone's guess. The GEM is only one instance of increasing prices and by a company that we all know is figuring out how to stay alive even as they have reformed. The industry as a whole will see reduced prices if piracy as a whole decreases and/or other means of monitoring/licensing/subscription/etc is offered.[/quote]

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-Chris

Why would a pirate who pirated the DVD quality version of "Jurassic Park" pirate the BluRay version of "Jurassic Park" They already have it, right?

It really isn't a matter of who would download it if it was out there. It is the fact that no GEM owner seems to have put it online! The GEM owners seem to value their investment, or want to stand by the terms of the license enough that they aren't even posting it.

THAT is one of the keys to eliminating piracy - It can't get pirated if no one puts it out there.

Editing - It could actually pirated. Multi-riggers. But that level of piracy compared to open internet access based piracy is relatively trivial.

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-Chris

I shouldn't have to pay higher insurance rates because I am a safe driver but the millions of others around are not.

I shouldn't have to pay more into social security than I will ever get out because part of what I pay goes to someone else.

I shouldn't have to pay any taxes for education because all my kids are grown and out of school.

Society shoulders the burden of society. That is how modern civilization works whether we agree with it as individuals or not. The actions and needs of others have an impact on us.

You don't feel you should have to shoulder the burden of piracy because you are doing the right thing. When in fact you are already shouldering the burden by paying $3 per song for karaoke when an album costs $9.99 for 12-15 tracks. Of course karaoke has always been pricier, but can you imagine .99 cent tracks? How much more profit would each of us make? Or how much more could we invest back into our businesses?

Again, you are taking the short view. You aren't looking past your next show. I am looking 20 years down the road. If you enjoy doing this so much and this is going to be your career, you should be looking that far down as well.

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-Chris

is going form $1.60 per track down to $0.99 per track worth it if i now also have to pay $200 a year to each of 10 labels? that leaves me with less profit or money to invest back in my business.

can Ford, Chevy and Chrysler say that we are not allowed to drive on the streets unless we join their club and pay their dues? this organization of manufacturers telling venues they can not hire hosts not part of their club is the same thing.

i agree with letting the manus decide if they want customers or not by making their decisions on usage, but it is over the top telling venues there will be no karaoke at that venue unless it is one of their people or else get sued.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Paradigm Karaoke, very eloquently said!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Apples and Oranges....

First off, you're twisting the question around. You said that you were looking to see if you could find the GEM series downloaded on any of the P2P or Torrents sites. Thus, your question should NOT be, "Why would a pirate who has copied other DVDs for personal or commercial use, copy a regular DVD of "Jurassic Park" and a BluRay version of it as well from one of those P2P or Torrents sites? After all, you already have 1 copy of it, why do you need 2?". The question SHOULD be, "Why would you download a regular DVD version of "Jurassic Park" and a BluRay version of it onto one of those P2P sites for others to copy?"

Obviously, the BluRay version is going to be of a better quality than the regular DVD version of "Jurassic Park." BUT, there are some people (ME) who do not have a BluRay player, so they (I) can not use BluRay discs. Are you telling me that the GEM track of "Love Shack" is of a better quality than the Spotlight Series disc version (SC8106-13)? I think that whichever version a KJ gets, they will be able to play it on their system. I doubt that they will be losing anything from media shifting the versions. I know that I can (if needed) convert an MP3+G file to a BIN file, and then burn it onto a disc, just as easily as you could take SC8106-13 and convert it to an MP3+G file for your system.

So, back to my original question... It's out there already from an earlier existing source. The tracks are no different in quality, so why would anyone waste their time sharing the GEM series ONLINE when they're already out there?

And the same question still holds true to this... WHY would they bother to download it to the various P2P sites? The same tracks are already out there. If someone is going make the tracks available to be stolen/shared by the rest of the world, they don't need to specifically put the GEM tracks out there when the exact same tracks were already out there to begin with (who cares if they're in a Blue Background instead of a Red one?).

And that is the same point I am making. It's already been pirated (maybe not the GEM series, but the EXACT SAME TRACKS are already out there (no matter how much you try to put your own spin on it)), so the piracy has not been eliminated. The piracy can slowly get eliminated if someone not only successfully sues the pirates, but also punishes them to the extent that it damages them (not just a slap on the wrist the way it appears SC has done so far)... AND LET THE WORLD KNOW ABOUT IT.

The magic number is $35.00/hr

SHOOT!!! My magic number is $50/hr. and a minimum of 3 hours.

"one of their people"

That would be an operator who meets the criteria set forth by the organization.

How is that any different than certification in other industries?

The authority conveyed by the organization that is issuing is what I am concerned with.

What is their authority based on or derived from?

How is their goal enforceable?

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Never the same show twice!

how long have i been saying this? no pirates have been harmed in the making of these lawsuits. how do i know?...show me the harmed pirates. all the files are sealed.
drunk drivers get jail time and fines. how do i know this? the files are not sealed, they want everyone to see the win against the bad guy and make everyone else think twice. doesn't always work, but could you imagine if the files were all sealed and it looked like no one got penalized? drunk driving could be committed by...let's say, 90% of the drivers.


and they can prevent all venues from allowing karaoke by suing them for not hiring one of their people? i would love to see the right they have for that. back to my analogy, how would Toyota, or Honda handle all drivers being required to join the Chevy club in order to drive a car on streets they do not own?


certification in other industries is not based on the whim of a manufacturer. ASE certification is not based on any car manufacturers whim nor can they prevent a shop from hiring a non ASE mechanic and sue them if they do. this is the same..."you will join the club, and hire only the hosts that pay us and we allow you to hire or we will sue you."

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I wouldn't ever do a gig for only $35 per hour. You need to set your goals much higher than that.

Paradigm, thanks for your prompt and courteous replies...

Your analogies don't quite jibe. (criminal vs civil)

This isn't about "whim". I don't believe that you think protecting your investment in an IP product is whimsical.

This group has already stated that they are taking a proactive and cooperative approach to resolving the issue.

What about all the people who have WON against SC? Why aren't they shouting from the rooftops? How about everyone who was actually named in a lawsuit and have been dropped because they were not pirating? Why aren't they here?

This is not about driving on public roads or which BRAND of car you drive. The car manufacturers don't check for a valid drivers license when you buy a car. You can, in fact, obtain insurance without a valid license and the dealer isn't going to turn down your money.
This is true no matter where or from who you buy a car. We're talking public, auto dealerships here, not private individuals.

I have no idea who around here has been arrested and/or charged with DUI or any other traffic offense. I just know that the penalties are harsh and could include jail-time.

"and they can prevent all venues from allowing karaoke by suing them for not hiring one of their people?"
Where did this come from?

Instead of suing for "not hiring", I'd think that they'd logically go after a venue for "hiring" someone who does not meet the criteria set forth by the license or membership.

This brings me back to my unanswered question: Where does this organization's authority come from?

The alphabet soups in this country are representative of the mfrs/publishers and everyone accepts that. No one likes to pay out of pocket, but they do or face legal action that can include stiff penalties, even shut down a business.

There have been many discussions in the past regarding a license or certification for karaoke operators and they all revolved around determining whether the operator is legit and how to keep the venues from hiring illegitimate ops.

I still want to know about authority and enforce-ability.

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Never the same show twice!