Karaoke Forums

Actually the title of this thread and I assume the premise is building a case against a pirate!

It seems that the subject has now shifted to getting congress to change the laws!

My thought is why not just use the laws that are in place to go after the pirates, seems simple enough to me!

Oh wait a minute that is what the problem is all about, the manus are going after the pirates using the laws that are in place to do so.

Social media presence doesn't change policy, nor does giving screwed up interpretations of the law (screwed up in the sense, your interpretation leaves a lot of people bent over the barrel). Moot point. It was effed up that you guys lost the ABKCO case. I'm not saying you guys effed up on the case, I'm saying the laws and the policy that caused you to lose was effed up. It needs changing obviously.

If you want congress's attention, then tell EVERYONE to start writing. Get the policy changed.

Get it?

It's obvious this cheerleading camp likes to write, but where you are focusing them is wrong. Inciting bickering on forums isn't the way to win this.

OK let me make a 2nd point here..

Whoever told you your evidence collections methods were kosher are wrong, from both a "Safe" method, and following a proper chain of gathering IT related evidence. I've done forensic gathering in my role as an IT admin in the 90's. Which law enforcement method are you following to keep the evidence chain pure? None. I've been trained in this, to the point of being sent to DEFCON conferences by companies I've worked for. Your current "Tech" advisors are incompetent.

From a purely CYA perspective, your method leaves so many attack vectors open, it's silly. I recently did a support stint for a VOIP company called 8x8 in Sunnyvale, and learned lots. On a video call, the server is ONLY used as a yellow pages, to connect calls together. Once calls are established, SIP/VOIP/h.264 data is sent peer to peer. Did anyone ever tell you "Hey man, maybe you should connect calls through a proxy, or VPN so in case these people you're harassing get pissed and decide to report your IP range to the nefarious pirating underworld?"

Nope. Sure didn't. Every time you did a "Skype" call, you've exposed yourself without realising it.

I'm not saying any of this as a threat, I'm just trying to make you aware. You want to learn more? Come visit. Come look at my CDG's. Lick my DKK. (I lick my DKK all the time, it's fun) I'll try and arrange a meeting with Zoe Lofgren and Mike Honda for you. You're fighting this the wrong way. You have "Good Guys" like me in the tech industry, that would love to see the bickering and piracy end.

We need a definitive settlement on this. It has to move beyond us bickering, because we will never settle it ourselves. Jolt Karaoke forum, gone.. OurKJTalk... Gone... All because the admins simply got sick of the bickering. IIRC even the SC forums went down for a while, because they got sick of it.

Go tell your people to go write congress. Be a real leader for change, stop instigating fights. We all deserve an inquiry into this, it's our rights as Americans to ask for it. We just have to stop bickering and just start writing.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Well, I'd like to weigh in on the side of the manus, to include Chartbuster.

Without the manus, there would be no karaoke. They are in business for the same reason as every other company - because there is a potential for profit. Profit is not a dirty word. Maybe it would sound better if it were termed "return on their investment". I know that it must cost plenty to have the operation that they have. Just like them, I invested a great deal of money in my business. I expect to get a return on my investment - not just for the time and labor I provide, but for the money I have tied up in my business as well.

Pirates have become a source of illegal competition for me, and it is not fair. They are using illegally acquired music (a primary expense of my business) and increase the supply of karaoke service providers in my area. As a result, the profit potential decreases. This is not just because of the increase in supply, but because the pirate does not need to recoup a substantial investment.

Back to the supply issue, consider this: A pirate may try to undercut you, and we all know that most bar owners are cheap and will definitely consider any cheaper alternative. Here is something else to consider - when pirates run ANY local show, they are also illegally acquiring customers that might have otherwise gone to your show. Most singers only get out 1-2 nights per week. By providing what I consider to be an illegal alternative, they dilute the market and make it more difficult for me to run a successful show and earn substantial profits for the bar.

Anyone that is upset about what the manus are doing is probably not genuinely upset because they feel as if they have been wronged. I believe that it is more likely that they are upset because they are facing stiff penalties and refuse to accept that they did something to deserve it.

I have not set up an audit, but I will at some point after tax season. If in the meantime, I become the subject of a lawsuit, I am sure that the matter can be very quickly resolved at no expense to me. I promise that I will report back if I am treated unfairly by the manus that I have paid many thousands of dollars to - because I expect them to treat me with a great deal of respect, just like they currently do.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Troy I haven't got an issue with the manu's making profit. I do take issue with the pirates, but let's compare some anecdotal evidence.

I mentioned I worked a LOT of IT in the 90's. I worked as both a house IT guy, and as an independent consultant.

In the 90s I would always get undercut by folks installing pirated copies of NT server. I still do. Does MS blame me? No, they've improved their anti-piracy technologies. They make it EASY for me to add seat licenses. They didn't just say "Aww those effing pirates, let's go bust them all" No, Bill Gates and company started lobbying congress, and gave the FBI the order to start going after it on a massive scale.

Such a massive scale, no way CB/SC/anyone else would EVER be able to do on their own.

Another anecdotal example. Video game industry was WROUGHT with piracy. Even on the PC. Steam came along, made content EASY for gamers to purchase, transfer to other machines, etc. It also has a system for making sure a game isn't being played in more than one place at once.. In fact.. If I were to recommend a system for keeping discs being used in only one place, I'd contact them. I just *might* just contact about steam distribution for my own product.

None of this is a magic bullet, but these companies are thriving. If SC/CB are right about the distribution laws, this type of system could never see fruition because it's illegal.

This is why we need to have this mess solidified by congressional inquiry, and if we're lucky a congressional hearing, Bill, senate vote, sign off by the president. These audits do nothing to fix effed up laws we have today.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Let me try and clarify, cause I tend to ramble.

Technology can fix 1/2 of this problem. (Won't fix disc based, but we'll focus on that seperate) Problem is, I have people screaming at me that in order to use the technology, they'd have to break the law.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

One more thing for Chartbussers.

A good executive summary for gathering computer forensics evidence can be found on the FBI website. These are the steps you have to take to make it court admissible. Remember, this is JUST a primer... There are so many many many levels, steps, procedures and processes that must be followed. I won't even claim to know them all, but I could send you in a better direction than you're going.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensi ... mputer.htm

Man, would have been so laughable though watching you guys go into court saying "WELL WE AUDITED THEM ON SKYPE!"

Your tech advisors are morons. Want more proof?

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Toger you are started to sound like Joe and Chip, The ones who are audited on Skype won't be the ones going to court!

So considering my last few posts here are on topic in regards to building a case about a pirate, maybe I should elaborate more.

First off, investigations need to be carried out by someone trained in computer forensics. It's not the wild west in court over this anymore, as there are many trade schools, and state run schools that have a flood of students that want to be the next computer CSI. Courts these days are expecting nothing less than someone who has been schooled, or has real world experience working forensics in the industry (such as gathering evidence for HR during a firing)

The basic process involves physical access to the computer (as I pointed out in another thread, there are plenty of easy ways to make "fake" silk screened discs, there are easy ways to TRICK the skype auditor as I pointed out (having them remote into a VMware virtual PC, and mount ISO images of discs everytime they want to scan one)

So here is the process.

Image the media being investigated.
Perform a crc checksum of the image to the original (to make sure that there was no errors in the image)
Put the original media in an evidence locker to prevent tampering.

THAT is court admissible. You won't build a case any other way. Anyone telling you anything else is wrong.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Toqer:

I agree that there need to be massive changes to the law, but even that's never going to happen until the manufacturer's start playing like the KJ's are not their enemies or treating them like they're idiots.

Case in point:

Chartbuster claims that they simply did what they could and were unfairly treated by the publishers:

Posted By Chartbuster Karaoke:


While this story sounds like they were unfairly treated by the publishers, I say that this is patently false crafted only to seek sympathy. And here is why:

Chartbuster claims they continued to license through "agencies" after the ABKO court action. This would be an agency like Harry Fox Inc. which under any arrangement with a publisher, is acting as an agent for the publisher. If the license is issued by Harry Fox Agency as an agent for the publisher, it is in effect "etched in stone." That's what an agent does. It's patently impossible for any publisher using an agency for licensing to be able to "retroactively" modify a license agreement. They don't have to extend the license, and they are free to modify it when the original license has been fulfilled or expired, but not midstream.

It would be similar to you leasing a car from a car dealer and two months later, Chrysler coming to you and telling you that the lease price is $2,000 a month MORE than the dealer gave you and you NOW owe $4,000 +the lease+ $2,000 for this month.

It's illegal, and you have legal remedies. To claim that Chartbuster was unfairly treated based on this fabrication is hard to swallow.

So, if the manufacturer's want cooperation, they need to stop treating those that have spent THOUSANDS on their product like we're stupid children.

Computer forensics or not, the mere fact that you have or had tracks on a computer is not ANY kind of violation, it's when they are used that it becomes a problem. So sniffing out old sector tracks and previous partitions on a hard drive won't do it.

Let me explain some more stuff here about laws, congress, empowerment.

In the software industry if a company is suspected of piracy it gets reported to the SPA (software piracy agency, a non government party) Usually it's a disgruntled systems administrator turning them in.

It doesn't take much to get a warrent to "count fingers and toes" so to speak. The SPA makes arrangement for a scan of said infringing companies computers. The FBI and the SPA go knocking hand in hand at the purps door.

The SPA then runs it's own software to scan for compliance on EVERYTHING. Nothing is modified in the scan. Computers with unlicensed software are seized (again, under FBI authority) and go through the process's explained in the earlier links about proper evidence collection.

Thing is, the software industry, the SPA would not have gotten this empowerment without lobbying congress. We now have a software ecosystem that is fair to all owners, both the trademark/copyright holders and the consumers, AND piracy is being fought on both a criminal and civil court levels. As things stand now, let's say you find a pirate via skype, and they decide to throw the PC into the ocean after? You have nothing, Do you realise this? You didn't follow evidence chain, you didn't have law enforcement backup, you got nothing.

So go write congress. Let's get this fixed up.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Do you know using them for a fact off a pc is illegal? I don't. I'm confused. So is everyone else.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

If it turns out that they are not then you're home free right?

If it turns out that it's illegal and you own the discs, then SC will need to prove that they have actually been "damaged" by your action. As much as they'd like to have you believe otherwise, the court is still going to want to see how they were damaged.

A civil lawsuit with no damages = waste of time. Courts don't like that.

They will have to prove that damage in a U.S. court, despite having no U.S. licencing to produce their tracks. Good luck.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Hell yah, and so is everyone else with an interest in moving the industry forward.

I even thought up the perfect company for managing collections for KJ's to ensure perfect compliance. Steam Content Delivery System. Yes, the guys that sell Team Fortress and Counterstrike. If you've ever used the system, you'd appreciate it.

We could mail our CDG's to Steam. They verify ownership, and drop the songs we own into our own system. Likely, some encrypted format involving the standard steam .GCF files, but because steam API is well documented, pretty much all karaoke software manu's could support it.

Steam already has "Play in one location" technology. (Sure we could build it ourselves, but look at all the resources Steam already has that we don't)

It's also a large, trusted company, focused on digital distribution.

If we get the answer to these perplexing questions and they go in our favour, an entire industry can be built that would indemnify, certify, and give enough back to PC based KJ's where they would want to join. You take the pain out of ripping, store my CDG's in a temperature controlled environment, and my yearly fees are reasonable? Perfect rips, ability to cache on any machine (again, will only run from 1 at a time) What PCKJ wouldn't want that.

Right now the only thing we're being offered is a kick in the DKK.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Lots of great points made but time is very tight today - I'll return to reply to messages as soon as I can.

Finally someone who actually thinks they really know something!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlI__uOB ... re=related

Well, here is my feeling on the subject. I believe that a karaoke music producer who has not obtained U.S. licensing for their product may well be a pirate. Therefore, anyone- such as yourself- who supports their efforts, especially those that hurt the karaoke business in hopes of a new way of deriving income,may well be a pirate supporter themselves.

How do you feel about that?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Why should anyone audit for a mfr.? They are not a law enforcement agency, and most of them have produced unlicensed ( in the US) music. They have no authority to even ASK for an audit. Also, the audit isn't even to "Prove Innocence"- which would be bad enough- but to give the mfrs. the impetus to break horns further, i.e. " Gee if they won't do the audit, maybe we have leverage". An audit does absolutely NOTHING for a KJ.

I should mention that most of these thoughts are directed toward SC audits. I really have no issues with the other companies. However, I should mention that I have a copy of a permanent injunction against CB, covering 180+ songs. I must assume it is still in effect, as I have asked them about the current licensing of these tracks FOUR TIMES, and they evaded the subject.

Since most of the US mfrs. were a tad short on licensing this makes them no worse than anyone else. The SC problem that I have is their attempt to coerce settlements on their unlicensed product, and also to requst LICENSING FEES ( The Gem Series) on product that is unlicensed in the US. Of course, a KJ that pays this fee is equally culpable.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

ok, so just remove all your U.S. produced discs and you can continue with this rant. as long as you continue to use and support them, you are no better than the rest of us.



ok, fair enough. disagreeing with one manus business practices is cool.



ok. post it. CB has said it does not exist, prove them wrong, or is this where you tell me to do it myself because you do not really have it?



yup, they f**ked up and admitted it, and payed heavily for it. most major corporations have f**ked up at some point, been sued and paid out the whazoo for it. if they learned and moved on, cool. i know, SC has NO U.S. licensing for anything they have. i and many others are still waiting for any proof whatsoever of that.....oh....wait....i know.....go look it up myself as you do not have it to post.



so it is ok if you wanted to copy your 8125 15 times? of course not, but for them to say you are doing wrong is wrong? they paid the fees, and the damages after the fact, got spanked, and had to destroy 1000 copies of the discs after paying for them to be printed. not like they made them and said "oh, sorry, we wont do it again" and left unscathed.
it cost a lot of money in damages.

i am not attacking you as a person or KJ Joe, this is debate on issues and nothing more, i just wanted to state that in public. i do not think you are a pirate supporter or anything of the sort.
just thought i should state that before someone might mistake these posts for shooting at you directly.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Okay, here is the injunction. The list of songs is a seperate exhibit but this should dispell your wondering if the document was actually a court order. Problem is, there is no corresponding release/waiver/cancellation or anything else that has been found. Chartbusters is of course, claiming that's in some lawyer's filing cabinet.... yeah, right. I've asked them for it too and they keep dancing away from a real answer. You tell me why they won't give a straight answer.

(pssst: it's called a permanent injunction for a reason.)

http://dkusa.com/CHB/famousinjunction.pdf