Karaoke Forums

Kojak,

I think I made up my mind. I am going for the C844 mixer. Pricewise it is <60% of the 16 channel version and the way I'm looking at it for karaoke it is big enough. It is also a nifty little mixer, especially after they upgraded it (new updated pictures on the Carvin website). The Carvin DJ mixer seems more focussed on recorded music and the mics are more for announcements (don't go through EFX and no linear fader?).

For a little four piece rock band having fun practiing and perhaps playing smaller venues I would not send the guitars and bass through the mixer. Acoustic drums would also be more than loud enough on their own. I don't disagree with your point that sending all instruments through the mixer would result in a better balanced sound. However, the amplifier for both electric guitars and basses plays an important role in the sound. I wouldn't hook an electric guitar directly into the PA, instead I would mic the guitar amplifier. That only makes sense though if the guitar amplifier does not provide enough juice.

And if my needs over the next few years exceed the capabilities of the C844 I can always sell it on E-bay and buy a larger one

Morten

Morten,
The only thing about the DJ mixer that I like is the internal subwoofer out.
When it comes to the drums the only reason that I would mic them is to balance them to one another and then to the rest of the band. Since drums are so loud on thier own it would mean using minimal power except at a very large venue. I've heard small low end drums that needed a little more help than what I think that you would imagine unless you heard them for your self.
When I said that I would run the guitars through the mixer, I didn't say any thing about sending the signal through my PAs amp. I would just want to control the line out to the guitar amp. Guitar amps are made to make guitars sound good. The guitar amp must provide most of the amplification them. The reason that I say that it must provide MOST of the guitars amplification is that you must have some of the guitar going through the PA system or else the vocalists will sound detached and not mixed. The same goes for the keyboards. Most of thier sound comes from a keyboard amp, (which is controled by the mixer), but some of it must come through the PA to be properly mixed.
All sound sources must go through the mixer. That isn't to say that they must be highly amplified by it, just controled by it.

The C844 looks like an "e-ticket" to me. I'm looking to buy a new system, but since I want to go giging I'm thinking about going a differant route.
No more rack, or component mixer or component amp.
No more speakers that takes a small gorilla to move.
My speakers weigh at least 65lbs, (just picked one up and stood on a bathroom scale), and my rack weighs more.
I'm thinking about the Fender Passport P-250. They have 4 models and this one is the 3rd from the bottom. The 2 lower end models don't have enough umph for me and the "top of the line" model just costs more and has only a couple of more features that I don't want any way.
It's either the P-250 or one of the Carvin packages with the road warrior case. If I go with one of the Carvin packages I want the 832 speakers because of the fact that they weigh only 51lbs as opposed to the 65 lbs that I'm lugging around now. Like the 1584s they are hi Q speakers with bass that ramps up quickly. They're not quite as good as the 1584s but SO much lighter.
I'm afraid of putting heavy speakers up on stands. The last thing that I'd want is for some drunk to knock one over and have it hit an innocent.

Kojak,

Good points! Using the guitar as an example. How would you get the guitar signal out after the fader? The insert is pre-fader. Would you send it to one of busses or use one of the monitor outs?

What do you mean by "e-ticket"? I never heard that expression before.

For portable use light sounds right. However, are you going to get enough bass?

The passport speakers consists of four 6-1/2" drivers and the amplifiers provide 125W (in unknown impedance). No mention of sensitivity. I am wondering whether you will have enough volume for karaoke. For conferences at speaking level it is probably good enough, but it seems a little low for music with realistic sound preassures. At $600 it is at least very affordable.

Personally, I think the Carvin Pa-800 w. 832's would be more versatile. But also much more expensive (~$1100). The speakers are more efficient (I assume), and almost twice the power pr. channel -- more headroom. Another option would be powered 832's and then either the C844 ($1100) or the SM162 board ($1040). I think the C844 with powered speakers would be the most desirable option.

Will the 832 provide enough bass when mounted high on poles? The 832's have less bass than mine and even though mine are fine I still wouldn't mind a subwoofer or two? Would also allow the 15" woofer to concentrate on the higher bass tones and let an 18" take care of the low stuff.

Many things to consider

BTW. the C844 also has a summed XLR output for subwoofer use.

Morten,
Your first question about how to get the guitars signal out from the mixer is a tough one for me to answer. There are many ways to do it ands no best answer. Each mixer is differant. An easy way for me to do it on my board would be for me to use an efx send. This is just a quick answer off the top of my head.

If you listen to "The Homecomming Queen's got a gun" by Julie Brown, she makes referance to an E-ticket. This expression comes from Disneyland. In the olden days, after you paid to get into Disneyland, you would buy ticket books for the rides. The tickets with a low letter like ABC were good for the smaller childrens rides, D and E ticket rides were for the better rides for adults.

I heard the P-250 outdoors and it had pleanty of volume but does need some help when it comes to bass. Chances are that the amp puts out its 125 watt per side at 4 ohms and the speakers are 8 ohm, (most are).
The sensitivity seemed just fine, but I doubt that it comes anywhere near the 100 db that your 1584s sport.

From what I've heard the PD-250 sounds richer than the P-250, but it costs $250 more. Price isn't really an issue for me, but portability is. I've just come out of a one year clinical trial taking double doses of pegulated interfuron, and it's left me on the weak side.

I'm seriously looking at the Carvin packages. My attitude is that if I'm going to make the initial investment of $670 for an 8 channel amp/mixer, I may as well spend an extra $100 and get the 12 channel. Since I'll be gigging and not just using it at home I would upgrade the case so I could just toss it into the back of my truck.

To me a P1200-832 with the "Road Warrior" case sounds like an "E-ticket".
The 832s aren't too heavey for me and have a nice frequency responce.
The 832's bass will be quite similar to the 1584s but the overall sound won't be quite as nice. There's a trade off between 2-way and 3-way speakers. 2-ways handle voice nicely. Breaking up voice 3-ways and then sending it to two crossovers to be reproduced by 3 differant speakers can make it sound a little odd. 3-ways are a better way to go for music since the frequency responce is a little smoother.
Since karaoke is live voice and canned music you could go either way with either a 2-way or a 3-way speaker.

If it wasn't for the weight, I would go with the 1584s.
I wouldn't want to load and unload 1584s and I'm afraid to put something that heavy up on stands for some drunk to knock over and onto an innocent.

Kojak,

you didn't like my idea of powered speakers? Perhaps they are too heavy.

For the same price as a powered 8 channel head (200W pr channel at 8 ohm) and the 832 you can get 832A (biamped with effectively much more power) and the C844 or SM162. I think might be an even better buy.

Morten

Morten,
I've given considerable thought to going with powered speakers.
I already have a Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro mixer which serves me fine.
If I go with powered speakers, I would probably go with the mackie SRM450s, as opposed to Carvin's 832P.
51lbs vs 57lbs, No big deal.
127dB vs 100dB, THIS is worth thinking about.

The 450s are pole mountable, but they also recline, (by setting them on thier side), so that they can be used as monitors.

They have a mic input as well as a line input.

The 450s frequency responce @ +/-3dB 52Hz-20kHz vs
The 832Ps frequency responce @ +/-3dB 65Hz-17kHz
The 450s perform better here and @ +/-10db
The 450s boast 41Hz-22kHz while Carvin only tells us of the 832s useable low frequency of 50Hz @ +/-10dB.
The 450s frequency responce ramps in a straight line from 41Hz to 52Hz and the rest of the responce is flatter than the 832s.
Mackies SRS1500 powered sub is designed to be paired with the SRM 450.
The 1500s have a recessed pole mount so that you can mount the 450s on top of them with a straight pole.
Carvin doesn't have a sub of any type that is SPECIFICLY designed to be paired with any of its loudspeakers. That doesn't mean that you'll have any trouble pairing any of Carvins speakers to a sub.

The 450s are not just powered speakers. They are active powered speakers with 2 amps, one for high frequencys, and one for lows.
All the specs in the world won't tell the story like acctually hearing the speakers will. It will be about a month until I get the chance to have the 450s demoed for me.

Mackie's SR1530 is a 3-way active speaker, but at 101.1lbs. it's not something that I would get for moble KJing.

It's too bad that the Mackie cataloge doesn't list prices.
I'm not hurting, but I'm not going to throw away a bunch of money just to get a little bit better audio performance, and lose all bang-for-the-buck performance.

I just got off of the phone with Mackie, and I've a new cataloge comming in the mail.
On the tech and specs page the weight for the SRS1500 was given at 46lbs, but on another page the weight was given at 100lbs. The rep that I talked said that it really weighs in at 98lbs but that it has been replaced with a more efficient SRS1501. The SRM450 costs $800 and you cannot buy factory direct.
More later.

Kojak,

I forgot about you Mackie mixer. That is a very nice one. I still think powered speakers would be the way to go for you. The 832A is BTW only 53 pounds and it is bi-amped with 300 W (in 8 ohm wooefer)+50 W (16 ohm horn) which should enable a voltage swing of Vrms=77 V. To get the same swing with a single full range amplifier you would need: 750 W (into 8 ohm). Bi-amping is cool!!!!

The 832P is also pole mountable and the Carvin subs support pole mounted speakers (1801). Though the Carvin subs are not light.

The Mackie powered speakers looks like a reasonable choice also. I don't know where you got your specs though. According to Mackie spec sheet (http://www.mackie.com/pdf/srm450_ss.pdf):

Freq (-3 dB) 55-18kHz
Sensitivity 98 dB (the 127 is max SPL)
The built in amp for the woofer is class G , NOT class AB
The woofer is only 12" (less bass).

I think there is less difference between the Mackie and the Carvin than than you think. Actually I think the Carvin might be a nicer speaker. Remember the frequency response you see for the 832 on the Carvin web site is for the 832. The 832A has an electronic crossover (Linkwitz-Riley).

Morten

Morten,
There are a couple of things in your last post that I don't understand.
What does BTW mean?
Would you please explain to me about voltage swing?

I haven't been to Carvin or Mackie's web site in a while.
I got my specs from an outdated Mackie products cataloge. I just ordered a new one.
I also have a recent Carvin cataloge.

I don't underestimate the 832 and the 832P(s). They DO have 15"woofers vs the Mackie's 12" woofers.

The Carvin and Mackie subs that I've seen are too heavy for me.
I don't know if I mentioned it but I've been in a clinical trial fot the last year that's left me SO weak that weight is a maj issue. This is why I want to downsize. My 65lb speakers are just way too heavy for me, and my audio rack is even worse. I need help moving either. I wonder if I could handle the 832P(s) 57lbs. I think that I could handle the unpowered 832s 51lbs. I know that 6lbs seems irrelevant, but I'm UP from 101lbs to 110 lbs, and I stand 5'8".

Kojak,

BTW="by the way" (perhaps nonstandard abbreviation?)

Regarding voltages, using the relationship between power and voltage:
P=V^2/Z
where V is the voltage, Z the impedance, and P is the power. "^2" means squared.

Let's now use the 832A as an example:

The woofer amplifier has a power output of 300 W into 8 ohm. Based on the previous equation we can now calculate the voltage: v=49 Vrms

Similarly for the horn which has a power of 50 W into 16 ohm. So the maximum voltage applied to the horn is: v=28 Vrms

Now you have to imagine the high frequency waveform riding on top of the low frequency one. So if a full range amplifier and a passive crossover is used (typical for all unpowered speakers unless bi-amped or tri-amped) in order not to clip a total voltage swing of 77Vrms is needed to achieve the same performance. This does not even take into account the extra loss of the passive crossover. 77Vrms corresponds to the previously mentioned 750 W into 8 ohm (again using the simple equation).

Another nice side effect: if you clip the full range amplifier you can double the output power (1500 W) and send a large portion of it to the horn. On the other hand if you clip the bi-amped case you only worst case double the 50 W. If your horn can handle 100 W it is not a big deal.

A further advantage: when all frequencies go through the same amplifier presence of strong bass might stress the power supply which will also have an impact on the trebble. Again for a bi-amped system the bass could clip while at the same time the trebble is perfect.

As far as I know all large installations tri/bi-amp their speakers since the savings on the power amps more than makes up for the extra cost of the electronic crossover.

I am even considering bi-amping my 1584's. I think the added punch and clarity makes it very worthwhile.

BTW I didn't learn this at Radioshack

Morten

Kojak,

some additional info. My 1584's has the same 100W titanium compression horn as the 1502/1503. As far as I know the 832 has a piezo driver. This was one of the reasons I got the 1584.

Morten

Kojak,

today in a musical instrument store I overheard a sales person tell a prospective customer not to get powered speakers. His argument was that the continous vibrations are not good for the solder joints on the printed circuit board. On the other hand if this is true then why would any manufacturers make powered speakers. Perhaps this was an issue with the first power speakers.

Morten

Be careful when any sales person says anything. Their objective is to keep their business going. Most work on a commission. A good powered speaker with a good warranty are great. Remember if a powered speaker goes u have the other one still working and if u have to you can get by. Your amp goes, unless you have a back up you either have to rent or buy. Ergo more commission for the sales person.

timberlea,

I am very well aware of the general level of competence of store personal. I have a Ph.D. i Electrical Engineering and have many experiences of being served pseudo science by store personal. However, since Kojak is considering powered speakers I just wanted to relay the info to him, since it at least to me sounds somewhat plausable.

Kojak,

I just took the plunge today and ordered the C1644. I figured for $300 more why not get the eight additional channels. You never know when you are going to need more channels. I also added an extra mic stand, a pair of closed headphones, for practicing without waking the familiy etc.

Morten

Morten,
I called Carvin to find out the weight of the PA800/PA800C, and the PA1200/1200C mixers, (the "C" designates that the mixer has a built in case). Fri they told me to call back on Mon. Mon the rep said that he didn't have the info yet, and that I should call him back on tues. 11-4-03. I asked him about the differance in sound comparing the PA800-832 and the C844 and the 832P. He told me that they should sound pretty much the same, (time for me to get another opinion). He told me that there wasn't a case available for the C844. Too bad, I really like the idea of a mixer with a built in level set, but if I can't toss it into the back of a truck...

I went to the store today and lifted a 50, and a 55lb bag of dogfood.
The 57lb 832P @ 57lbs is out.
The the C844 mixer without an available road case is also out.
I'm going to an area where there's a Carvin store in a couple of weeks or so.
If I can handle the weight of the 832s in real life, (as opposed to trying to compare the weight to a bag of dogfood), I might go with the PA1200C-832 package or the PA800C package.

The judy is still out on both systems.
If I'm going to make a $670 investment toward a 8 channel mixer, why should'n't I add $100 and get a 12 channel mixer. The ony issue for me here is the weight.
The same applys to the speakers.
I really like the 832s but I don't like the idea of trying to put 51lbs up on stands, even if I can handle the weight while loading and unloading.

The 822 speakers are the ideal weight, but I don't like the way that the frequency responce curve looks. I don't see any mention of the 742 speakers being stand mountable. That's too bad because I like the way that thier frequency responce curve looks and 46lbs isn't unattractive either.

I know that there are other companys out there, but trying to find prices, weights, and compleate tech specs is like trying to squeeze water out of a rock.

Timberlea dosn't realize that this is a second system and that I,m downsizing for mobility.
I didn't know that this post was going to be on a new page and that I could edit, but not deleate it.
Don't miss my last post on pg 3.

Hey Kojak I understand you are downsizing and mobility factors. That's why I recommended the Yorkvilles. Very light (under 40lbs), sound great, and no amp to lug around.

Kojak,

before you count out the 844. You could get a road case from someone else. I constantly see a NY company advertise roadcases on Ebay for ~$100.

When you open up the manual on the Carvin website it says PA800/1200 weight 28 lbs. So how much does the C model weigh extra.

While lifting dogfood might be good for you general fitness level, it does not necessarily give the best impression, since the speakers have handles. Lifting something slippery and inconvenient like dogfood makes it feel heavier.

I don't think there is any substantial weight differnece between the PA800 and PA1200. The have the same built in amplifiers which probably account for the bulk of the weight.

How about a JBL Eon 1500. Only 38 lbs with a 15" woofer. 55-16 kHz freq. response.

Morten

Kojak,

what is your opinion on monitors. In preparation for my karaoke party (I invited ~80 of my friends and colleques to my house) I tried singing behind the speakers. I would have liked some direct sound, since the reflected sound was missing some highs etc. Usually I sing in front of the speakers and in effect use the mains as monitors.

Morten

Morten,
Timberlea mentioned Yorkvilles. When I went to thier website a while back, they didn't list prices. How about the JBLs? Is there some where that I can go and find prices, and tech specs?
Like I said in the post where I mentioned lifting some bags of dogfood, this was just to give me a genreal idea of how much I could lift. I'm not going to buy anything until I can make my trip to the Carvin store in a couple of weeks.
The Carvin rep told me that my cataloge is out of date, and that the 832s weigh 46lbs.

I want to demo speakers before I buy.
The Cartvin store is about 4 doors down from The Guitar Center, which is about 20 min. from Sam Ash, and there is a place in beautiful down town Burbank called, Speaker City.

Monitors are cool, but I don't need them. Some singers do, especially those who have hearing problems, or those that are new to karaoke.
You don't need a lot of speaker to do the job.
I have actually used a VERY small pr of Aiwa 2-ways, with a 6" midrange.
These home audio bookshelfs cost me a whopping $10 at the Goodwill.

Don't put monitors in front of the singers where they'll give you feed back. If you get feed back, you can tune it out with the eq, and you can turn the volume down, and lastly, you can turn the efx down.
If you compare a channel without efx to one that does, you'll find that the one with efx will allways feed back first. I've seen KJs put a towel over the monitor to prevent feed back. I think that this is as unprofessional as it looks. Why have an EQ if your not going to use it? I've been using powered home theather speaker towers for monitors with no problems.
What I do is I put my PAs in front of the singer, facing the audience, and the monitors in back of the singer, and to the side. No surround sound!
If the PAs are in front of, or behind the singer is of no consiquence. I wouldn't reccomend using one monitor, but two. This way you can keep them to the singers side and not right in front of him. Do not use a 3-way for a monitor.

Kojak