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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:19 am 
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:!: Even if every other country has failed, don't we as a nation believe in American exceptionalism? As you pointed out it did work once in one city, lighting might strike again? After all a Constitutional Republic never worked before, tho it was tried by many countries, until we did it.

P.S. I am encouraged by the level of unity most Americans have shown in combating this virus. Things would have been different if this administration had stayed the course, and not send conflicting messages to the people. If you tell the people the truth and level with them F.D.R. once said they will make the sacrifices needed to achieve final victory, we did exactly that in WWII.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:23 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
:!: Even if every other country has failed, don't we as a nation believe in American exceptionalism? As you pointed out it did work once in one city, lighting might strike again? After all a Constitutional Republic never worked before tho it was tried by many countries, until we did it.


Did you forget or neglect to read the part that "every single person was righteous and committed to work for the good of the community"? Do you honestly believe that this country is capable of that??? HOLY SHI-ITE BATMAN!! Talk about blinders!!


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:28 am 
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mrscott wrote:
Did you forget or neglect to read the part that "every single person was righteous and committed to work for the good of the community"? Do you honestly believe that this country is capable of that??? HOLY SHI-ITE BATMAN!! Talk about blinders!!



:shock: Now who is being Debbie Downer?


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:00 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:
Did you forget or neglect to read the part that "every single person was righteous and committed to work for the good of the community"? Do you honestly believe that this country is capable of that??? HOLY SHI-ITE BATMAN!! Talk about blinders!!



:shock: Now who is being Debbie Downer?


That's your response??? :shock: :? :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:11 am 
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mrscott wrote:

That's your response??? :shock: :? :roll:



:?: What other response can there be? You don't want to think outside the box, you want to still stay in the box, we are all trapped in. What the wealthy don't realize is they are trapped also. There are now 33 million unemployed workers in the U.S., many of the jobs they once did are gone, and not coming back. What Andrew Yang warned about happening in 5 to 10 years, is now happening at warp speed due to the virus. His original proposal was modest compared to what will be needed now. When things really get bad and the economy is in a full recession possible depression mode, then things will really get dicey once the unemployment and stimulus money gets used up. We will probably need a huge public works program, besides UBI to keep society from falling apart. This country is awash with guns, I don't think starving people are going to just wait, they are going to start taking to stay alive.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:28 am 
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:?: Just out of curiosity did any of the conservative hosts that got their stimulus check send it back to the government, saying they didn't accept socialistic handouts from the government? I accepted my check even though me and my wife didn't need it, and invested it in California municipal bonds, to help rebuild our state. This provides funds to keep Californians working, reinvesting in the state. Even corporations accept handouts from the government, in the form of corporate welfare, is their need any greater than the rest of us?


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:59 am 
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[quote="mrscott"]

Sad to say, the majority of the people never plan far enough ahead to even think about the long term future. And to take from the "have" and give to the "have nots" will NOT work, never has, never will.


:!: You have never read Andrew Yang's book on UBI have you? You need to get it and read it. This is not Robin Hood taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Rather it is a self funding contract between the governed and the government. To pay everyone 1200.00 a month under Yang's plan a VAT would be levied on all goods and services, of 10%. Since the money would be paid to everyone, everyone would be paying this VAT tax. It is calculated that 800 billion dollars would be raised yearly to cover the cost of the payments, along with 200 billion in savings on current government social programs, which would be eliminated, since the money would be paid directly to those who need it every month. This VAT tax would fall most heavily on the poor since they do most of the consuming, and little savings. So in reality the poor would be funding their own payments, the tax would be hidden since it would be collected at every stage of production and distribution. It would prevent the economy from melting down every time there is a shock like a stock crash, or pandemic.

P.S. Just like this stimulus payment, it is calculated every dollar of government stimulus generates 3 dollars in economic growth, by creating jobs. So the 1 trillion dollars of UBI spending would result in 3 trillion dollars of economic growth, if done right. Infrastructure spending has an even better return, one dollar of government spending equals seven dollars of overall economic growth. Case in point the National Highway spending of the 1950's under Eisenhower.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 8:25 am 
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This whole thing is a cruel joke. Coronavirus disproportionately effects old people, especially people with pre-existing health conditions, such as obesity (no, being fat isn't beautiful, it's dangerous to your health). Rather than these vulnerable people being allowed to make a choice to stay in their house, we instead abruptly shut down most of society, bankrupt businesses, ruin entire industries and possibly permanently alter the business models these business were based on, with no realistic end date in sight. In a country where socialism has started to sound appealing to some people, evidence being Bernie Sanders even having a chance at becoming a presidential nominee, our response to a pandemic has created a situation where we are now talking about literally paying work-able people to sit around their house for years over fear of a virus that many people who get don't even know they have. In a country 20+ trillion dollars in debt.

It's selfish for the older generation to silently watch as we completely devastate the American way of life because you don't want to sit in your house while less vulnerable people who are willing to take the risk go out and continue to participate in society. The fact that so many people are letting fear justify this man-made depression, with little regard for the people effected and long term effects on our society, is sickening. The news that bars in Wisconsin were packed hours after the stay-at-home order was struck down is evidence that this is an artificial depression being forced on people against their will. You are free to stay in your house for years until there is vaccine, but many people want to live their lives and can't, and the long term detriments of this experiment seem to be of little concern to so many people.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:01 am 
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zeke wrote:
This whole thing is a cruel joke. Coronavirus disproportionately effects old people, especially people with pre-existing health conditions, such as obesity (no, being fat isn't beautiful, it's dangerous to your health). Rather than these vulnerable people being allowed to make a choice to stay in their house, we instead abruptly shut down most of society, bankrupt businesses, ruin entire industries and possibly permanently alter the business models these business were based on, with no realistic end date in sight. In a country where socialism has started to sound appealing to some people, evidence being Bernie Sanders even having a chance at becoming a presidential nominee, our response to a pandemic has created a situation where we are now talking about literally paying work-able people to sit around their house for years over fear of a virus that many people who get don't even know they have. In a country 20+ trillion dollars in debt.

It's selfish for the older generation to silently watch as we completely devastate the American way of life because you don't want to sit in your house while less vulnerable people who are willing to take the risk go out and continue to participate in society. The fact that so many people are letting fear justify this man-made depression, with little regard for the people effected and long term effects on our society, is sickening. The news that bars in Wisconsin were packed hours after the stay-at-home order was struck down is evidence that this is an artificial depression being forced on people against their will. You are free to stay in your house for years until there is vaccine, but many people want to live their lives and can't, and the long term detriments of this experiment seem to be of little concern to so many people.



:!: While it is true that the virus is currently effecting the senior population the most, that is changing as the virus continues to mutate. It is now starting to effect children with a serious infectious skin syndrome. The virus has only been on the radar screen for less than six months, still it is growing and changing. We had to shut down because we did not follow South Korea's example and get testing, contact tracing, and isolation of carriers under control to begin with. Failing to contain the virus led to having to go to the next step mitigation which calls for social distancing to buy time so hospitals were not overwhelmed. The next phase was flattening the curve which has been accomplished at a high price. UBI is not socialism it is a pay as you go proposition as proposed by Yang, an idea that would have already existed if Richard Nixon had managed to get is passed in the 1970's. The idea came from the right, since it would eliminate government managing the social safety net, and paid workers directly. The beauty of it they would self fund their own payments. The money pumped into the economy would have grown it faster than the trickle down approach that has failed miserably. When done correctly UBI is self funding and does not add one penny to the deficits, except for the initial start up costs, which will be recouped in the form of economic expansion.

I'm not sitting back watching selfishly although I am a senior. I'm offering a solution to the problem, that could be long term, free us of the endless cycles of economic boom and bust, that unfettered capitalism has imposed on all of us. There would be no depression if we get our house in order. People can go back out if we do like any good football team and get back to basics. We start real testing, contact tracing, and carrier isolation. If we do these three things we could reopen in a safe manner. Without them we are flying blind and doomed to have more cycles of spikes, and lock downs to control the pandemic. What Wisconsin is going to prove is if this flying against medical advice, is going to result in needless infections and deaths. When health concerns trump economic concerns, I think most rational people will stay home if they can. Let the rest of you spin the cylinder on the virus gun and hope the chamber is empty. After all thinning out the herd means survival of the fittest, that doesn't mean survival of those who throw the biggest fit.

P.S. Oh by the way zeke did you take your stimulus check and spend it? That was not self funding and did add to the deficit, the next one will also. Are you going to send it back to the Treasury since it is Socialism?


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:23 am 
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The same politicians who said that we need to give people $1200/month, if they got their way, would then use the same logic to say that we just need to tax rich people more and everyone deserves $1500/month... $2000/month... etc. It never ends. They will of course appeal to emotions to make this case. Think about the poor single mother, she can't survive on $1200... Just like unskilled burger flippers should be making enough money to afford a mortgage and a car, it's only fair... The way these types of entitlements are presented to people is very deceiving. They are told to envy and hate rich people and believe that what they have earned is stolen, not deserved, and somehow owed to them.

The most dangerous part of the entire coronavirus quarantine is the possibility that people start to get used to being paid to sit at home, and after enough time no longer believe they should have to work to earn a living. There will be politicians who reaffirm and exploit this desire in order to get votes.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:39 am 
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zeke wrote:
The same politicians who said that we need to give people $1200/month, if they got their way, would then use the same logic to say that we just need to tax rich people more and everyone deserves $1500/month... $2000/month... etc. It never ends. They will of course appeal to emotions to make this case. Think about the poor single mother, she can't survive on $1200... Just like unskilled burger flippers should be making enough money to afford a mortgage and a car, it's only fair... The way these types of entitlements are presented to people is very deceiving. They are told to envy and hate rich people and believe that what they have earned is stolen, not deserved, and somehow owed to them.

The most dangerous part of the entire coronavirus quarantine is the possibility that people start to get used to being paid to sit at home, and after enough time no longer believe they should have to work to earn a living. There will be politicians who reaffirm and exploit this desire in order to get votes.



:!: You haven't been paying attention zeke, UBI would be self funding paid for by the very people who need it most in the form of a consumption tax. We have a consumer based economy that will go nowhere unless there are consumers. The poor and middle class are the consumers in our country not the rich. All UBI provides is an economic floor you can't fall under, it would help eliminate homelessness, poverty, and crime. All problems we are now paying for since there is no UBI. This idea was pushed by the right think tanks in the 1970's and is not a socialist plot. In fact some socialists don't like it, since it takes control of the money out of the hands of the government, and pays it directly to individuals, who decide how it is spent. People are after all people, in countries where UBI has been tried on a limited basis, it has proven to be positive. Most workers freed from worrying about their basic needs, are able to spend more time self actualizing. They improve their education, get better jobs, less domestic violence, less stress etc.etc.etc. Isn't it better to spend the money up front, rather than try and spend money to fix problems caused by poverty, in the first place like crime?

Also people being human, even though their basic needs are met, they will still want to work and earn extra money for the goodies all want. It is a lot better to have UBI, than to live in some post virus world, where if you have food, and other luxuries you are going to have to sit on top of your spoils with a gun, to keep others from trying to steal it. One of my dad's jobs as a soldier in the occupation army in Japan after the war, was to guard a supply dump. A friend of his shot a boy at night for taking a can of beans to feed his family, is that the type of world you want to live in?


P.S. By the way zeke did you accept your stimulus check?


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:00 am 
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What you, and politicians who support this idea are saying, is that it will actually save us money and not cost us money. Sending people free money will save us money, because we are going to make such big big cuts elsewhere. Big beautiful cuts will be made, folks! But if you look at the history of entitlements in this country.. if you have a healthy cynical view of politics... how these sorts of things are pitched to the public versus the reality of their long term implementation is always vastly discrepant. So it doesn't really matter to me what Yang's book says, or what some greasy politician says to make people vote for them, because the reality and unintended consequences of such a program will not be honestly discussed until after it is made law, expected by people, and difficult/impossible to roll back.

As far as whether I qualified for, received, or accepted a stimulus check, that does not matter at all. You're attempting to entrap people with that question and it has no bearing on the actual policy. The government sent out free money to a bunch of people, including dead people in some cases, and basically said you can cash these checks without any downside. That has no relation to it being a good idea or not, or a model for something we should do in the future.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:17 am 
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zeke wrote:
The same politicians who said that we need to give people $1200/month, if they got their way, would then use the same logic to say that we just need to tax rich people more and everyone deserves $1500/month... $2000/month... etc. It never ends. They will of course appeal to emotions to make this case. Think about the poor single mother, she can't survive on $1200... Just like unskilled burger flippers should be making enough money to afford a mortgage and a car, it's only fair... The way these types of entitlements are presented to people is very deceiving. They are told to envy and hate rich people and believe that what they have earned is stolen, not deserved, and somehow owed to them.

The most dangerous part of the entire coronavirus quarantine is the possibility that people start to get used to being paid to sit at home, and after enough time no longer believe they should have to work to earn a living. There will be politicians who reaffirm and exploit this desire in order to get votes.

Our best economic success came when the rich were being taxed more.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:20 pm 
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zeke wrote:
The same politicians who said that we need to give people $1200/month, if they got their way, would then use the same logic to say that we just need to tax rich people more and everyone deserves $1500/month... $2000/month... etc. It never ends. They will of course appeal to emotions to make this case. Think about the poor single mother, she can't survive on $1200... Just like unskilled burger flippers should be making enough money to afford a mortgage and a car, it's only fair... The way these types of entitlements are presented to people is very deceiving. They are told to envy and hate rich people and believe that what they have earned is stolen, not deserved, and somehow owed to them.

The most dangerous part of the entire coronavirus quarantine is the possibility that people start to get used to being paid to sit at home, and after enough time no longer believe they should have to work to earn a living. There will be politicians who reaffirm and exploit this desire in order to get votes.



:!: UBI is not about taxing the rich, since everybody would get their payment, even the rich, and all would be paying the VAT even the poor. It would be a contract between the people and their government. The net benefit would be to all since it would stabilize our economy making it not subject to market boom and bust cycles of unfettered capitalism. In raw basic capitalism, with no constraints there are winners and losers, the system works well for 1% of the population, not so well for the rest of us. With UBI burger flippers would not have to stay burger flippers, they could train for a better job. The real American Dream upward mobility. I worked my whole life and I'm still in the same class I was born into, working middle class. In normal times the poor don't hate the rich, they just wonder why someone should have so much, and they can't even fill their dinner plate. There are actually Republicans like Mitt Romney that think direct payments are the way to go. It is not about Socialism, it is about empowering people to have the ability to get above mere existence.

After staying home for going on 2 months I can tell you it is not that great a life. After awhile you can't play anymore video games, you can't do any of the music projects you never finished when you were hosting. I have seen so many episodes of Perry Mason and Law and Order that I know just about all the dialogue by heart. I go out and work on my other property, I check in every so often those friends that are too old to go out, and bring them what they need, and leave it at the doorstep, since I don't want to make them ill. I'm staying home because I am old, and this is the way I can help the current situation the most.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:28 pm 
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Think about it as a Star Trek economy. Everyone would have money for the basics of life and then they would work for to afford the extra. The reason to work would be to better themselves. I actually don't have to work if I didn't want to but it allows me to get out of the house and not have to stare at the walls all day. This virus shuttin is exasperating my Disability that requires some sort of social interaction with the outside world. Otherwise I am quite content with my income.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:33 pm 
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Sorry, I'm skeptical of Utopian money distribution schemes that sound too good to be true. It certainly sounds nice. I love Star Trek! However, I've heard communism is a pretty great system in theory too but it seems to run into a few snags when it actually gets implemented. It sure sounds nice on paper though.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:34 pm 
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[quote="zeke"]

As far as whether I qualified for, received, or accepted a stimulus check, that does not matter at all. You're attempting to entrap people with that question and it has no bearing on the actual policy.


:?: Doesn't it? The whole argument on the right is that UBI is socialism and should be opposed by one and all. The stimulus check does matter since by accepting it you are taking a government hand out, something all conservatives are opposed to. UBI is a program setup to help stabilize the economy so it can weather the economic, and medical emergency crisis that will happen now and in the future. Once established it will not add one penny to the deficit, and in fact increase GNP by at least 3 trillion dollars. In principle this idea was born in conservative think tanks, just like the Affordable Health Care Act was. The only reason conservatives were opposed to AHCA was because the Democrats pushed it through. Actually the Democrats for all the grief they got, should have gone whole hog and just had Medicare for all, and be done with employer based health care all together. It is not entrapment since I admitted I took the stimulus, and used it to create jobs in my home state. So even if it was a government handout, I determined what was done with the money. Since it will be spent on state infrastructure, it will have a multiplying effect of, for every one dollar spent it will increase state GDP, by seven dollars, eventually.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:40 pm 
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zeke wrote:
Sorry, I'm skeptical of Utopian money distribution schemes that sound too good to be true. It certainly sounds nice. I love Star Trek! However, I've heard communism is a pretty great system in theory too but it seems to run into a few snags when it actually gets implemented. It sure sounds nice on paper though.



:roll: It would be to good to be true if UBI were structured like the current stimulus packages. In the current bailout programs money is being spent with no plan on how to pay the bill when it comes due. Just like we have fought all the wars since 911 on the good old government credit card, instead of raising the taxes need to fight them. We have added trillions of dollars of debt to the deficit, without batting an eyelash, not to mention the money we spend yearly on defense, which is greater than all the other major countries combined. Again this idea is not communism, it was once championed by the most ardent anti-communist in modern times Richard Nixon.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 3:58 pm 
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DannyG2006 wrote:
Think about it as a Star Trek economy. Everyone would have money for the basics of life and then they would work for to afford the extra. The reason to work would be to better themselves. I actually don't have to work if I didn't want to but it allows me to get out of the house and not have to stare at the walls all day. This virus shuttin is exasperating my Disability that requires some sort of social interaction with the outside world. Otherwise I am quite content with my income.



:!: That Danny is exactly what UBI is.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:05 pm 
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DannyG2006 wrote:
Our best economic success came when the rich were being taxed more.



:!: This is true Danny the American Standard of Living, was the highest during the presidency of Dwight David Eisenhower in the 1950's. It was at that point America was closer to being a Socialist nation than any other time in it's history. The effective tax rate on the 1% was over 90%, and they still could afford fancy cars, and homes. They just didn't have the money to try and buy our reps., then Congress worked to try and achieve a consensus, rather than be polarized. We still had enough people who had lived through WWII alive to remember what pulling together means, and we built the national highway system, which we can't even keep in repair today.


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