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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:16 pm 
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PC Vs. Mac = Latency Vs. No Latency
I highly doubt you will ever see a PC in a pro recording studio.

I know it's just a personal opinion but I don't see the BOSE L1's to be "all that"

I find I get better for cheaper when going with a set of MB12 mains + a set of MB4 subs + A couple of BOSE PackLite amps + ToneMatch T1 for a fraction of the cost (Ebay $2000 for all) as compared to 1 L1 setup ($3500)

Double the power for less than half the price.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:58 pm 
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Studio K which was Stellar Records' (Pop Hits Monthly, etc.) studio for Pop, Rock, Urban, and Adult Contemporary produced 90% of everything it released in our PC studio "A". We did have a Mac room with ProTools in studio "B" but mostly for compatibility purposes for outsourced tracks. 80% of our country was done on 2" analog tape and didn't go digital until its last year of production. I don't know where you got the idea that "professional studios" don't use PCs but you are hugely misinformed. There are many studios running Sonar and/or ProTools on PCs. Back in the 80s I was working with Roger Powell who was a programmer but better known as the keyboard player for Todd Rundgren. He wrote one of the best MIDI sequencing programs for any platform on a PC. It was called Texture. In the early 90s I was using a DAW for the PC developed by Dave Cox at MTU. Yes the same MTU that makes Hoster. While there's little doubt that Macs were by far the platform of choice, there were and still are and maybe even more so, numerous PC based studios.

BTW ... I finally remembered the name of the company that made Baltic birch speaker boxes. They were called Bag End. I went on their website and they're still in business but I don't think they sell unloaded cabinets anymore. I think all of the systems that they sell are fully loaded. I don't know what they're using for drivers but it didn't appear to be JBLs. Oh well JBL isn't the only speaker company in the world although I'm extremely partial to JBL and they are usually my first choice, but I have used other drivers depending on the application. For my money though, the JBL 8" driver in my opinion is the best speaker on the planet for vocals, although if you argued that the Bose 5" driver (if they still make it) was equally as good or maybe even slightly better I wouldn't argue back.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:56 am 
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karaokeniagarafalls wrote:
PC Vs. Mac = Latency Vs. No Latency
I highly doubt you will ever see a PC in a pro recording studio.

Bastiat wrote:
I don't know where you got the idea that "professional studios" don't use PCs but you are hugely misinformed. There are many studios running Sonar and/or ProTools on PCs. Back in the 80s I was working with Roger Powell who was a programmer but better known as the keyboard player for Todd Rundgren. He wrote one of the best MIDI sequencing programs for any platform on a PC. It was called Texture. In the early 90s I was using a DAW for the PC developed by Dave Cox at MTU. Yes the same MTU that makes Hoster. While there's little doubt that Macs were by far the platform of choice, there were and still are and maybe even more so, numerous PC based studios.

KNF says stuff like that all the time. You have to learn to just tune most of it out :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:24 am 
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dvdgdry wrote:
You guys never want to acknowledge that maybe you were ignorant of how to use it.
Or those that use it don't want to admit that they overpaid for something not as good as something cheaper - it can go both ways. Yes the system I tested was the first series. The systems I heard since were the current systems - to my ears nothing has changed, or again the #1 excuse gets brought up "those kj's just didn't know how to use it". Sorry don't buy into that theory.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:29 am 
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Lonman wrote:
dvdgdry wrote:
You guys never want to acknowledge that maybe you were ignorant of how to use it.
Or those that use it don't want to admit that they overpaid for something not as good as something cheaper - it can go both ways. Yes the system I tested was the first series. The systems I heard since were the current systems - to my ears nothing has changed, or again the #1 excuse gets brought up "those kj's just didn't know how to use it". Sorry don't buy into that theory.

would you buy it if it was said about the system you use?
if i bought it and it sounded like crap?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:57 am 
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Sure, difference is I've heard similar systems to mine from other kjs that sound great. I cannot buy the theory that every Bose stick system I've heard that didn't sound great were simply because the kj didn't know how to operate it.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:44 pm 
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While the old saying that "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" maybe true. It also seems to be true that some people may not know the difference just the same. Let's see 3" inch drivers in a stick sitting on top of a sub-woofer ... yep, that oughta work!

Not to mention playing prerecorded stereo karaoke tracks on a mono system. Gee what could possibly go wrong here? Can anyone spell phase cancellations? Of course you could always play the non-vocal channel of a PHM Multiplex track as they were recorded in mono, but unfortunately we never did cover "I Will Survive". :roll:

The more posts on sound issues that I read, the more I'm convinced there's a need for a book on basic sound reinforcement and acoustics.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Welcome to karaoke.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:55 am 
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Bastiat wrote:
The more posts on sound issues that I read, the more I'm convinced there's a need for a book on basic sound reinforcement and acoustics.
You just have to keep in simple terms and not so technical that the avg kj can understand it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:23 am 
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Bastiat wrote:
Not to mention playing prerecorded stereo karaoke tracks on a mono system.

are you advocating for playing stereo in bars?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:55 am 
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8) My question is if the Bose system is so inferior then why have so many hosts paid out the big bucks? From the reviews I have read it seems the patrons love the Bose system, even if it doesn't meet the high standards of some hosts in quality. This goes back to the old question of is a host really doing everything wrong, if he is packing the venue? To some hosts delivery is more important than the results. How long would any host keep a gig if he or she wasn't producing? Karaoke has to be cost effective or else it will simply cease to be. Maybe as host we have to accept the fact that most patrons are not as sophisticated as we experts, and any time we say the host isn't doing it right and he or she has the crowd, doesn't it rather sound like sour grapes?


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:14 am 
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The truth about BOSE attracts both sides of an audience and it can very very good or very bad... Hence the term

"BOSE MAKES BAD SINGERS SOUND VERY GOOD"
meaning if the singer is very bad, then BOSE clearly will show that.

I agree with Lonman on the Sound Reinforcement for KJ's - Even though a small hand full of us understand the lingo...Keep it less technical.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:39 pm 
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To Paradigm Karaoke ... Absolutely! If you're a small band or combo playing all live instruments on stage without stereo backing tracks then mono is sufficient, although depending on the type of music the band is doing there are exceptions. On the other hand if the band is using stereo backing tracks or if you're a DJ or KJ playing prerecorded stereo music then you should absolutely be playing in stereo. Will people even notice the difference when playing stereo tracks through a mono system? I suspect that some will and some won't. On some songs it will be much more noticeable than on other songs. It largely depends on how the song was mixed and engineered, how the various instruments and FX were panned in the stereo field during the recording process, and a few other factors.

Without getting too complicated here, let's use a simple example of a guitar track that the engineer panned straight up and down equally to both the left and right channels, dry with no FX. If you were to play this track on either a mono or stereo system it wouldn't matter at all and the guitar would sound perfectly fine on either system. But let's say the engineer ran that guitar through a simple delay that was panned hard right while the guitar was panned hard left. If you play this guitar track through a stereo system, that guitar will sound very open and spacious, pretty much the way in which the engineer was intending for it to sound like. Now depending on a couple of factors such as the time of the delay and its amplitude, etc., if the right track was delayed to the point where it was 180 degrees out of phase with the left track (not uncommon at all), and the same amplitude or loudness, then you played this guitar track though a mono system, the guitar track would literally vanish. You would not hear the guitar track at all, it would disappear. Now imagine this scenario to the same or maybe even a lesser degree on the rest of the instruments in the stereo mix and you can see why it is preferable to play stereo when using prerecorded material. Hope that answers your question.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:48 pm 
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To the Lone Ranger ... It really isn't a question of whether a host is doing everything wrong, some things wrong or nothing wrong at all. I spent 30 years of my life on stage as a performer much of that time full time and professionally. I can tell you that whatever successes that I had were not largely as a result of my sound system. Toward the end of my live performance career, I was in a high energy T40, funk, R&B and dance trio that used a fair amount of backing tracks that we recorded ourselves. We were in a 6 week rotation with as many different clubs ranging anywhere from 5 to 7 nights per week. We made sure that every time we returned to a club we had an entire new set of music. We also thought out how each song would be used in the set to include its tempo and the order in which it would be played. We also had different arrangements of our sets that would fit the scenario of any particular night. For example if we were opening to a sparse crowd or a full crowd, or if the club was part of a restaurant and we were opening while people were still dining. it was all of these things combined that contributed to our successes not the PA although we did put a lot of effort into that as well. So the bottom line here is that if you're packing the venue then you're not doing anything wrong even if you're PA sounds like (@$%&#!).

As to why so many hosts paid out big bucks for Bose systems, it's called good marketing. Some people fall for the hype. I guess it all boils down to an exercise in human behavior, a topic of which I wouldn't attempt to engage in this or any forum. It's just like their "wave" system which in my view doesn't sound much different than a $29 getto blaster you can buy at WalMart, yet people still swear by them ... go figure. I could give you a gazillion technical reasons why I don't like Bose systems but the only reason that really matters isn't technical, it's because I just don't like the way they sound. I won't shill for any particular brand. The only thing that matters to me is what I hear not the logo on the speaker system. Having said that do you think there might be a reason why you never see a Bose system in a professional install, that is of course unless Bose would be willing to install one for free like they did in the Winter Olympics back in the 80s? Those installs are still dominated by Meyer and JBL and for good reason.

Bottom line ... if you're packing the venues and your clients and customers are happy then just keep doing what you're doing and don't worry about whether or not you're doing everything wrong, or whether Bose systems sound better or worse than whatever else your competitors are using. At the end of the day those concerns are not what's going to put money in your pocket. Do your job ... hone your craft!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Bastiat wrote:
Without getting too complicated here, let's use a simple example of a guitar track that the engineer panned straight up and down equally to both the left and right channels, dry with no FX. If you were to play this track on either a mono or stereo system it wouldn't matter at all and the guitar would sound perfectly fine on either system. But let's say the engineer ran that guitar through a simple delay that was panned hard right while the guitar was panned hard left. If you play this guitar track through a stereo system, that guitar will sound very open and spacious, pretty much the way in which the engineer was intending for it to sound like. Now depending on a couple of factors such as the time of the delay and its amplitude, etc., if the right track was delayed to the point where it was 180 degrees out of phase with the left track (not uncommon at all), and the same amplitude or loudness, then you played this guitar track though a mono system, the guitar track would literally vanish. You would not hear the guitar track at all, it would disappear. Now imagine this scenario to the same or maybe even a lesser degree on the rest of the instruments in the stereo mix and you can see why it is preferable to play stereo when using prerecorded material. Hope that answers your question.
Yep same goes with vocals on regular cd's - and why vocal eliminators do not work in many cases (not that it's being discussed but same principle applies in the original recording was mixed and what was panned where). Vocals too can be panned left right with a slight delay, or straight up with the effects panned both left and right leaving a ghost effect when the vocals are removed. And since those processors seek out like frequencies on each channel, many instruments can also get washed out as well, typically bass guitar, kick drums, snare, some of the middle tom drums, but others can be affected as well depending on where they are panned in the mix - mono (forget about it - no vocal eliminator would work).

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Bastiat wrote:
While the old saying that "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" maybe true. It also seems to be true that some people may not know the difference just the same. Let's see 3" inch drivers in a stick sitting on top of a sub-woofer ... yep, that oughta work!

Not to mention playing prerecorded stereo karaoke tracks on a mono system. Gee what could possibly go wrong here? Can anyone spell phase cancellations? Of course you could always play the non-vocal channel of a PHM Multiplex track as they were recorded in mono, but unfortunately we never did cover "I Will Survive". :roll:

The more posts on sound issues that I read, the more I'm convinced there's a need for a book on basic sound reinforcement and acoustics.

karaokeniagarafalls wrote:
Welcome to karaoke.

KNF, you are aware that he clearly thinks Bose is not a good option for for a PA system.... but then again "it's only karaoke"


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:55 pm 
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For those of you concerned about the level of technicality of my book .....

As far as the book ... in dealing with acoustics and sound reinforcement there are some extremely complex issues that are difficult to comprehend for anyone, not just KJs. Simply ignoring them doesn't make them go away. However what if it can be explained is such a way as to make that light bulb go off in someone's head that would help them to understand their acoustic environment? What if they found that information helpful enough so that if they ever do encounter a situation that is unruly, they can at least have a basic understanding as to what is happening and maybe even be able to come up with a few remedies?

One of the things I hope to achieve in the book is to break as much of it down as I can into simple layman's terms. Here is an excerpt from my book on psychoacoustics where I'm discussing the differences between "sound" and "hearing" by illustrating the differences in frequency ranges within the hearing perceptions of various species, in this case human hearing vs. canine hearing. ".... We can therefore immediately ascertain that the relationship between "sound" and "hearing" is not a linear one, or in other words it is not a 1 to 1 ratio, instead it's logarithmic. For those of you who excelled in subjects other than math don't let that scare you. I'll explain this in layman's terms later on in this chapter so that it will make sense to even the most mathematically challenged". Now without the benefit of reading the whole section on psychoacoustics it would be easy for you to arrive at a "who cares" attitude, but the point of that particular section is to provide a basic understanding as to the difference between sound and hearing. It's a basic premise to understanding how things work in the field of acoustics and sound reinforcement. The key here is to break it down to its simplest forms so that the whole idea of these concepts aren't intimidating to those without engineering minds.

I also intend on providing some free tools either on CD or a link on my website using Audacity for the audio platform as it is free, and works on both Mac and PC. I'm not sure how I will provide the math tools as I'm not a programmer and I am giving it away so I won't be hiring one either. Currently I'm constructing the formulae in Excel, but I realize not everyone has Excel and it might be too complicated for some people to use. The way it works now is that the user just inputs the data such as room dimensions (doesn't have to be exact) and Excel does all the math in calculating the Potential Acoustic Gain (PAG), Inverse Square calculations and a few others. Ringing the speakers or microphone and making adjustments with a 31 band EQ should be the last thing someone does to maximize PAG, and in fact I would recommend against doing so as I will be providing better tools through Audacity that provides a much better analysis (every acoustic space has peaks and nulls), and a lot easier on the ears. With that being said, I wouldn't discourage anyone from engaging in that practice if it works for them without horribly altering the sonics of their system. What I am saying however is that there are several other things that should be done prior to using EQ on the system, but again just because it should be higher up in the order of remedies doesn't mean it has to be done that way or in that order.

As far as actually equalizing the system, using a 31 band EQ, is an awfully crude way of doing so. Remember that a 31 band EQ is a 1/3 octave equalizer meaning that each fader in the spectrum is musically equivalent to 4 semitones or for you musicians out there the root to a minor 3rd. Ouch! A garden variety parametric will get you to at least 1/10 octave which is slightly more than 1 semitone, still a bit wide, but 3 1/2 times more accurate than a graphic EQ. Some of the digital plug-ins these days go beyond 1/10 octave and is one of the things I plan to go over in my book.

Anyway, I hope I've articulated the premise of the book in such a way so as to remove any prospect of intimidation prior to reading it. Does anyone actually NEED this book? Hell no! Bands, KJs, DJs, etc., have been providing mobile sound to bars and other venues for years without ever giving any of this a second thought, and will continue to do so with or without my book. However, there are those among us who find this stuff fascinating, and still others who will leave no stone unturned in an attempt to achieve the best possible sound they can experience, within their financial means of course. My engineering background is not in Audio, but in an entirely different discipline. One of the first things that any engineer student learns irrespective of the discipline they've chosen is to "isolate the variables". It doesn't take very long for that to embed in your entire psyche and way you approach just about everything in life in general. That being said, my interest in sound and acoustics and how they both work in relation to each other gave me an excuse to apply my engineering and math skills in these areas. Also I'll admit that at the time (and deep down maybe still am a bit) I was most definitely a "gear slut".

In any event I still have a ways to go before finishing the book. Also as a result of comments made in this thread there are few things that I would like to add to the work before I'm finished, and by the looks of things maybe even a few more.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Yes Lonman ... you're observation about vocal eliminators is correct and relevant. It's the inverse of the same principle. Except in this case the audio data that is in-phase from both the left and right channel is removed as opposed to the scenario in my post whereby the channel data that was removed was out of phase. Lead vocal tracks are panned left/right but it's the FX that end up getting panned slightly left or right and is why you often hear the "ghosting" in a track whose vocals have been removed. and because so many other tracks are usually panned straight up and down such as the kick drum, snare, and bass guitar to mention a few, a lot of that sonic information is removed as well. I guess you can run the audio through a high pass filter prior to the vocal removal process to help with some of the bass, but because there is so much harmonic and sub-harmonic content in audio there is still going to be some unintended consequences in the process. Of course tracks from the 60's and 70's often times had a lot of hard panning going on. In some cases the entire lead vocal track was hard panned and I've even heard some tracks where the entire drum kit was hard panned. Pretty funny when you think about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:08 pm 
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I just had a DJ/sound provider crack up a few minutes ago when I told him:
Most DJ's these days don't know what a clip light is! He nodded and rofl.
Unfortunately I see too many KJ's showing up with two 10" powered speakers
and a laptop and that's it! Clip lights never turn off. (local multi riggers by the way).
Any sound for KJ e-book should be in simple layman's terms to be truly useful.


I'm not fond of the Bose Sound either but it has it's place and the dispersion is quite nice.
On the other hand each engineer has his or her own "Sound". Some want perfectly flat, others want a colored system. Then there is always venue size and coverage issues too.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:24 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
8) My question is if the Bose system is so inferior then why have so many hosts paid out the big bucks?
The biggest reason I see kj's buying these stick systems (from the forums and locals) in the first place - portability, everything can pretty much fit in the trunk of a car. Sound, they are ok (nothing great) but not worth the price, but again that is my opinion.

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