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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:42 pm 
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Alan B wrote:
So, since you can only use these "food vouchers" at this establishment, and if the food there really sucked, you would give the gift of the "Greasy Spoon" to your friends? You must not think very highly of them.

Unless you know for a fact that your friends love going to a particular restaurant, then I'm sure they would love a gift certificate for that place. But otherwise, bad choice in gifts.

Again, you're still trying to justify the situation. But it's just not working my friend. Instead of staying focused on the topic, we have the "but Hillary", "but Obama" syndrome.


8) Have you tried the food? How do you know it's greasy? You are making a lot of assumptions without any facts, just saying :order: :order: :order:

P.S. It is called entering facts not in evidence. I see you like to use if quite a bit yourself.


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:52 pm 
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NoShameKaraoke wrote:
Here's why, if I were a host, I wouldn't do this: the markup.

Restaurants are about a 300-350% on cost of goods on average (full range is somewhere between 150% and 650%). Now, obviously, they are a business, and have expenses, utilities, and payroll to pay. But since this method requires paying them back with the payment, they're really only out the cost of goods--the revenue wouldn't apply because this is a meal that would otherwise not be sold.

Effectively, they're getting away with paying $75-100 for the gig, but making it sound much more lucrative by providing $300 retail for it.



8) What if the going local rate for hosting is only $75-100 for a 4 hour gig, then what? Is it fair compensation?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:27 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Have you tried the food? How do you know it's greasy?

I don't. And I never stated such as fact. Re-read what I said which was what "if". The key word is "if". You know, a word you are very familiar with since you've used in most of your posts regarding this situation. What if this, what if that...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:07 pm 
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8) All I said Alan is that under certain circumstances payment can be made in other forms than cash. Compensation doesn't have to be in coin of the realm. Your position is anything less is demeaning. The host can elect to take pay in any form he deems proper. All the time people use gift certificates as gifts to friends and family. I might not like the gift but it has to be received in the spirit it was given.

P.S. Oh by the way the food might be good, is it then an inferior gift to give someone? I have had several friends give me gift certificates for dinning and other services, was that an insult? You have never had anyone give you a gift certificate?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:33 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
All I said Alan is that under certain circumstances payment can be made in other forms than cash.

Yes, this is true.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Compensation doesn't have to be in coin of the realm.

It does if you want to pay your bills unless this is strictly a hobby in which case you're not relying on money to pay your bills.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Your position is anything less is demeaning. The host can elect to take pay in any form he deems proper.

True, but then the question is "why?". Why would you work for anything less than cash? If you are a true professional trying to run a business, you would not be settling for anything less. Free food is not going to let you purchase new music, replace equipment, print songbooks, etc.

Most of us that are doing this are trying to make a living or to supplement our income. Free food does not do that. If this is a hobby and money is not an issue or your just doing this for fun, is only hurting your fellow KJ's who rely on this for income. Why? Because it sends a message that we're a cheap bunch that doesn't need to get paid much if anything at all.

So, for the idiots who are doing this for food, free beer, or even free... think about all of the legit KJ's that you're hurting and being affected by your stupidity.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:51 am 
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8) Personally I think for the most part karaoke hosting has gotten out of the realm of sole support income for most hosts. I never quit my day job even during the glory years of high wages. At least for me hosting is just too unsure to make it the only source of income. Today especially that is true. It started out as a hobby, it became a business, and after I retired it was all I did for several years, but I always had other sources of income, it was never my sole support. I understand that some hosts feel the casual host is hurting the wage rates, and demeaning the industry. I have always had the deepest respect for all hosts, to me it is one of the hardest jobs when you are trying to put everything together and make it work. I have been on both sides of the window and you really don't understand the job until you have done it yourself. I made mine and got out, because it seemed at the time the thing to do. I'm no longer competing on a regular basis with hosts in a industry that overall is in market life cycle decline. I don't need the money and I'm trying to give work to hosts that want it. In some small way I'm trying to keep karaoke going a little while longer.

P.S. Professionals do work for things other than money. Free food could save you from having to spend your hard earned cash from other gigs so you can buy the materials you have listed Alan.


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:55 am 
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mrmarog wrote:
Toastedmuffin wrote:
Bartering is always fine for some things: helping move someone for pizza and beer is never a bad deal. But if the USA crashes and burns financially, I highly doubt that DJ services are going to be needed much, if at all. :?

Well I guess I better fill up my motorhome and head to Canada. The militia is going to come and take everything so I'm leaving tonight. To hell with Wednesday's show. :D


Hey, there is tons of bars looking for karaoke here all over Canada.
Come on down.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:16 am 
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karaokeniagarafalls wrote:
mrmarog wrote:
Toastedmuffin wrote:
Bartering is always fine for some things: helping move someone for pizza and beer is never a bad deal. But if the USA crashes and burns financially, I highly doubt that DJ services are going to be needed much, if at all. :?

Well I guess I better fill up my motorhome and head to Canada. The militia is going to come and take everything so I'm leaving tonight. To hell with Wednesday's show. :D


Hey, there is tons of bars looking for karaoke here all over Canada.
Come on down.

Don't forget to say hi to knf, mrmarog. I might even join you and say thanks to knf for the invite. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:04 am 
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i'm too lazy to cook, so, hot food is part of my budget.

if other venues are paying me cash to host karaoke and this one venue decides to pay me in food, i'll definitely look into it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:24 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:

8) What if the going local rate for hosting is only $75-100 for a 4 hour gig, then what? Is it fair compensation?


Yes--I guess I only take umbrage at presenting $75 as $300, given it can only be used at that specific place.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:39 am 
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Fundraisers... always.
Regular karaoke shows... not likely due to the fact that many bars like to "Cheap" out on the KJ. (Bar tab + Food in exchange for karaoke services)

if it was a new bar/lounge starting out maybe to a degree, but let's face it. We got our own bills and expenses to cover.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:36 am 
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karaokeniagarafalls wrote:
Fundraisers... always.
Regular karaoke shows... not likely due to the fact that many bars like to "Cheap" out on the KJ. (Bar tab + Food in exchange for karaoke services)

if it was a new bar/lounge starting out maybe to a degree, but let's face it. We got our own bills and expenses to cover.



8) Which brings us back to a basic question, how many hosts use gigs as their sole source of support? In today's market I would say not as many as use to. Most hosts have some other source of income, you can see this by the average age of a host, most of the one'
s I know are older in their 50's or more. I have seen very few hosts in their 20's, and if they have a family to support have other means of income. Older hosts have a pension or two besides their gigs, more of the small mom and pop operations. Multi riggers tend to hire younger hosts, but then most of the costs are carried by the owners.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:09 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:

8) Which brings us back to a basic question, how many hosts use gigs as their sole source of support? In today's market I would say not as many as use to. Most hosts have some other source of income, you can see this by the average age of a host, most of the one'
s I know are older in their 50's or more. I have seen very few hosts in their 20's, and if they have a family to support have other means of income. Older hosts have a pension or two besides their gigs, more of the small mom and pop operations. Multi riggers tend to hire younger hosts, but then most of the costs are carried by the owners.

This is my sole income.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Would I accept food for a kj gig?
It depends on how big that pile
Of Boiled crawfish, shrimp, and
Steamed in the shell oysters is!
Throw in some tobasco hot sauce,
Some good horseradish for the
Oysters and top that off with two
Or three St.Pauli Girls to wash it
All down, and we gone have a good
Time for sure! BooYah!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Quote:
So, for the idiots who are doing this for food, free beer, or even free... think about all of the legit KJ's that you're hurting and being affected by your stupidity.


Well, I guess I'm a "stupid idiot" then... but that's OK, I've been called worse.

After all, as noted earlier, I do a number of gigs every year for meat pies, and would actually do them for free, but the client insists that I accept them. On the other hand, I have two very well-paying gigs every week, and three fairly decent pensions every month, so I can afford to give away my services from time to time.

Bottom line..... I may be a stupid idiot, but I'm a happy stupid idiot.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:16 pm 
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The issue I have with doing gigs for free or for food and drinks is not about whether you rely on the money but the message you're sending to bar owners and how you're actions are contributing to less paying jobs.

A lot of KJ's don't really need the money and so they may not care if they get paid by cash or by food and drinks. But the rest of us do. And instead of looking at the big picture of how you're hurting the industry and making it even harder to get a money paying gig, you're only thinking of your selfish self.

First we have piracy that brought the going rate way down, and now we have KJ's willing to work for food or beer, only further hurting the industry and bringing the going rated down even further.

For those that are doing this for cash or as a supplement to help pay the bills, KJ's doing this for free are only hurting the rest of us making it very hard to sell your services when the places in the surrounding areas all pay their KJ's in beer or food, or both.

So, it's not just about you, it's about the industry as a whole and how your actions are hurting your fellow KJ's.

This was once a very good industry where you were able to make a good buck. But it's things like this that are tearing it apart only helping to cause it's demise. Piracy, KJ's undercutting each other, working for food... It's no wonder this industry is such a mess and the shape that it's in. No one sticks together, no one is a team player, no one cares.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:41 am 
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i make one exception....
i do freebies for fundraisers or for important vet events.
a weekly show or private party i do charge for with this exception.
but i could not in good conscience charge for a Wounded Warrior fundraiser, or a Patriot Paws fundraiser, or a St Judes fundraiser, or for the vets getting to leave the VA home to visit their local VFW one time a year for a special lunch with the Cooties.

i know this is about a weekly show, but after some of the posts i had to voice this exception.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:42 am 
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Alan B wrote:
First we have piracy that brought the going rate way down, and now we have KJ's willing to work for food or beer, only further hurting the industry and bringing the going rated down even further.


It wasn't JUST Piracy. There was also an over-saturation of Singers who decided to throw their hat in the ring, and they drove the prices down (non-pirates). Many of them were hobbyists (like me), and they didn't care how much they made (NOT me) per show (including working just for free drinks and food). This drove down the prices LONG BEFORE piracy was a major issue. Piracy just re-enforced the already lowered going rate for a KJ.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:05 am 
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Alan B wrote:


This was once a very good industry where you were able to make a good buck. But it's things like this that are tearing it apart only helping to cause it's demise. Piracy, KJ's undercutting each other, working for food... It's no wonder this industry is such a mess and the shape that it's in. No one sticks together, no one is a team player, no one cares.



8) There are many reasons the industry is in decline, not just pirates, or hobbyists, they have contributed, but so have other forces. Many factors have made karaoke unattractive to venues. Even though PEP has had a small impact on the hosting industry, it has turned off some venues to the idea of supporting karaoke at all. Fear of legal suits have caused several venues to just drop karaoke all together. Alan the very thing you rail against unity has never been a part of most hosts situations. The common idea is that you are in direct competition with other hosts and that it is a tough dog eat dog environment. By the nature of the job it tends to make loners of hosts, that is why there are these forums to try and talk with others that are dealing with the same problems you are on a daily basis. Besides fellow hosts you are competing with multi rig large companies that bring cost down through economy of scale.

It is this lone host aspect of the business that appeals to many who want to be their own boss, and not have to deal with higher ups. As an independent owner operator, however, you still have to deal with venue owners so really you are just trading one boss for another. True you have a certain amount of independence but ultimately you are answerable to some one. Another part of this equation has to do with the fact that after the economic meltdown of 2008, the karaoke industry took a big hit and never really fully recovered. What it all comes down to is we are responsible for our own piece of the industry, we all represent hosting the good, the bad, and the ugly. Patrons and venue owners opinion of hosts rests on the history they have with the reps us.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:45 pm 
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So I think that if it weren't for the fact that he's so heavily entrenched with the military/veteran thing, the LoneRanger would make a good libertarian. At least he has a basic understanding of free market principles, scarcity and the definition of value. The problem with much of the thinking in this thread is due to a lack of understanding of value and free markets. In the case of the venue offering food as compensation, it's a simple yes or no, but attempting to qualify a fiat currency as a superior form of currency is just more lack of understanding as to what constitutes "money". At least you can eat food, money on the other hand isn't worth the paper it's written on. It's a promissory note as in a "promise" to pay ... good luck with that ITSHTF!

The food offer might not be of value to some in which case they're free to negotiate a different form of compensation or oppose the terms altogether and move on to offer their services to the venue's competitors. Becoming offended by any offer for food, mowing the lawn, cash, or cryptocurrency, etc. is reading more into the arrangement than is necessary. It's simply an emotional response and emotional responses never make for good business decisions. I don't host karaoke shows nor will I ever, but if I did and someone offered me food as a form of compensation, or a gift certificate to Amazon, or a service contract to service my computers for the next year, I would simply weigh the value of the benefits of what is being offered against the value of my time for the services that I'm rendering. If I need the food more than I need the time then it's a deal (in the Austrian school of economics this is known as praxeology), otherwise I'll offer my services elsewhere. It seems like the good ol' American way to me.

As far as people hosting for free or low fees, sorry but that's the way free markets work. It's called supply and demand or the principle of scarcity. Unfortunately, we've been misled early on in life through the educational indoctrination system we refer to as "public education" with Keynesian economics and we're unable to recognize what a free market is and its value. Or maybe we do recognize them but don't like the consequences of a free market. If your skill is of more value than the KJ offering his services for beer and p****y, then it will be reflected in the bottom line of the venue. If the venue, is incapable of recognizing that then the venue will not be in business very long. Everybody is looking for a free lunch but sad to say there's no such thing.


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