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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:29 am 
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cueball wrote:
mrscott wrote:
The smoking situation does not mean that I would limit the hiring process to only non-smoker, it only means that I would not allow smoking while on shift. Your comment about how the smell lingers is precisely why I would not want them to smoke while on duty, whether on break or not.


OK then, I guess those Smokers who you have employed will probably smoke 5 minutes before their shift begins... SURE... the smell won't linger because they smoked before starting work (and they meet your restriction of not smoking any time within the range of their assigned shift too).

Not for nothing but, I am a non-smoker, and I have been to places where smoking is permitted. The odor stays on my clothes for days. So, regardless of your desired restriction, a person who smokes is still going to reek of it regardless of the time of day or time when he/she begins and finishes his/her shift.

I think it's time to take a more realistic view of this Mr. Scott.


I have no control over a person on his/her own time. Smoking is NOT permitted inside any business or within 25 feet of an entrance in Utah. This rule would be strictly enforced. I know what I am asking/wanting might seem a bit "restrictive", but from a customers view point, I do not like at all when my waiter/waitress smells of smoke. It truly ruins my appetite. I find the smell repulsive. I do not like it when I am wanting service only to find my waiter/waitress is nowhere to be seen because they are yet another "break". I have friends who smoke, and they know not to smoke near or around me. I live in an area that the non smokers far outnumber the smokers. And I believe that most service industry business's would benefit from having a similar policy. Again, this is just my belief. I could be proved that my belief is wrong, and at that point I would be willing to take another look at the policy. But I think around this area, I am right.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:38 am 
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Let me reiterate... this is NOT a smoking vs non-smoking thread. This is a question of how YOU would run a bar if you owned or managed one. If your choice is to let people smoke, that is how YOU would run one then. And I would totally accept that viewpoint. I am just saying this is how "I" would run one if it were me making those decisions. Don't be foolish into thinking your way of thinking is the ONLY way there is.

OK, Now with that out of the way, let me hear what you WOULD do.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:34 am 
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mrscott wrote:
Let me reiterate... this is NOT a smoking vs non-smoking thread. This is a question of how YOU would run a bar if you owned or managed one. If your choice is to let people smoke, that is how YOU would run one then. And I would totally accept that viewpoint. I am just saying this is how "I" would run one if it were me making those decisions. Don't be foolish into thinking your way of thinking is the ONLY way there is.

OK, Now with that out of the way, let me hear what you WOULD do.

Actually, the question I have is: Why does it matter? I mean, if you have no intention of buying a bar, this conversation is pretty redundant.

It's like going out to dealerships looking at new cars when you have no intention of buying one; or going to a real estate agent to show you new houses when your not in the market to buy one. To me, this would be a total waste of time. I just don't see the point.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:42 am 
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Alan B wrote:
mrscott wrote:
Let me reiterate... this is NOT a smoking vs non-smoking thread. This is a question of how YOU would run a bar if you owned or managed one. If your choice is to let people smoke, that is how YOU would run one then. And I would totally accept that viewpoint. I am just saying this is how "I" would run one if it were me making those decisions. Don't be foolish into thinking your way of thinking is the ONLY way there is.

OK, Now with that out of the way, let me hear what you WOULD do.

Actually, the question I have is: Why does it matter? I mean, if you have no intention of buying a bar, this conversation is pretty redundant.

It's like going out to dealerships looking at new cars when you have no intention of buying one; or going to a real estate agent to show you new houses when your not in the market to buy one. To me, this would be a total waste of time. I just don't see the point.


My reasons are none of your business. The attitude that you exude is astounding! You are simply being rude, nothing more. Now go grab yourself another cigarette and chill out.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:47 am 
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mrscott wrote:
My reasons are none of your business. The attitude that you exude is astounding! You are simply being rude, nothing more. Now go grab yourself another cigarette and chill out.

Actually, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying trying to understand why it matters. And by the way; Happy Thanksgiving!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:52 am 
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Alan B wrote:
mrscott wrote:
My reasons are none of your business. The attitude that you exude is astounding! You are simply being rude, nothing more. Now go grab yourself another cigarette and chill out.

Actually, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying trying to understand why it matters. And by the way; Happy Thanksgiving!


Yes,, Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

I do have my reasons, you just have to accept that at face value. I won't go into it here at all. It really is nobody's business by mine.

But, since you use the car buying analogy, you just never know when you are going to need a car, and it helps to be informed and current on possibilities.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:01 am 
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Mr. Scott, I made my living as an entertainer when I was younger, and it was often frustrating to see how unprofessional and unproductive the staff was, especially since our prospects for pay increases seemed to rely on 'the tape' at the end of our gig. So I'm sympathetic with your post.

But I can tell you that I've seen many bars come and go during the 17+ years I've owned mine. One of the things that rarely works is an owner who comes in assuming all his employees are ready to 'take advantage of the system', and especially starting out with a laundry list of gripes, pet peeves, and hobby horses he wants to ride. Your list includes some valid ideas, but the success of a bar turns on a bunch of things that belong above that list.

My approach to rules has been to hire mature, intelligent servers who have a good ethic toward guest service and teamwork. These people will largely self-manage.

Taking the example of people smoking on their breaks. Smokers are addicts, and they're going to smoke. When I see my servers smoking, they're outside, aware of wind direction, and holding their ciggy away from themselves between puffs. Looking at this logically instead of emotionally, if a guest gets a whiff of smoke, it's likely to be from the guy two feet away from him at the next table, who chainsmokes in his truck all day, not from a nearly undetectable scent on his server, who's there momentarily. This is actually a problem I'd expect to have more than I actually do. It rarely comes up.

Re your objection to spouses and boyfriends: My employees and guests are like a little community, to some degree. Suppose you have a table of guys who come in for karaoke every Friday, and one of them starts dating the cocktail server or bartender. Are you going to kick him out, and maybe lose the whole party? Or take the server off of karaoke, where she's built a clientele?

My approach would be to offer a 'word to the wise' to the server, reminding her that guests might think the service is different because he's distracting her, and to not do anything that might cause that. I've had to give someone a reminder now and then, but never a sustained problem. A server who couldn't manage this is probably going to have other problems anyway.

We'll be starting our 19th year in March, and most of my servers have worked for me for years. My experience is that you're better off hiring smart, responsible people, letting them know what's expected of them, and making rules only when you have to.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:20 am 
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CafeBar wrote:
Mr. Scott, I made my living as an entertainer when I was younger, and it was often frustrating to see how unprofessional and unproductive the staff was, especially since our prospects for pay increases seemed to rely on 'the tape' at the end of our gig. So I'm sympathetic with your post.

But I can tell you that I've seen many bars come and go during the 17+ years I've owned mine. One of the things that rarely works is an owner who comes in assuming all his employees are ready to 'take advantage of the system', and especially starting out with a laundry list of gripes, pet peeves, and hobby horses he wants to ride. Your list includes some valid ideas, but the success of a bar turns on a bunch of things that belong above that list.

My approach to rules has been to hire mature, intelligent servers who have a good ethic toward guest service and teamwork. These people will largely self-manage.

Taking the example of people smoking on their breaks. Smokers are addicts, and they're going to smoke. When I see my servers smoking, they're outside, aware of wind direction, and holding their ciggy away from themselves between puffs. Looking at this logically instead of emotionally, if a guest gets a whiff of smoke, it's likely to be from the guy two feet away from him at the next table, who chainsmokes in his truck all day, not from a nearly undetectable scent on his server, who's there momentarily. This is actually a problem I'd expect to have more than I actually do. It rarely comes up.

Re your objection to spouses and boyfriends: My employees and guests are like a little community, to some degree. Suppose you have a table of guys who come in for karaoke every Friday, and one of them starts dating the cocktail server or bartender. Are you going to kick him out, and maybe lose the whole party? Or take the server off of karaoke, where she's built a clientele?

My approach would be to offer a 'word to the wise' to the server, reminding her that guests might think the service is different because he's distracting her, and to not do anything that might cause that. I've had to give someone a reminder now and then, but never a sustained problem. A server who couldn't manage this is probably going to have other problems anyway.

We'll be starting our 19th year in March, and most of my servers have worked for me for years. My experience is that you're better off hiring smart, responsible people, letting them know what's expected of them, and making rules only when you have to.


I appreciate the feed back very much. And I would definitely look at the entire situation when the need might arise. Your comments are not falling on deaf ears. And any other good suggestions or comments would be very welcomed.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:56 am 
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I am going to give you a piece of advice that's probably the single most important aspect of all: Knowing when to cut off someone who's had too much to drink.

I've quit a job doing karaoke for a bar because I would see people being served who couldn't even stand. And then leave in that condition. Many times I've told the servers that someone should be cut off. I've spoken to the owner about this problem also. The response was "What am I supposed to do". This is an owner who is rarely there and watches the place at home by cameras. Well, it's not my job to police the area. It's the owners responsibility to handle it.

As a result of people being over-served, I can't tell you how many close calls I've had with some drunk almost knocking over my table. I have too much invested in my equipment to have it trashed because the bar will continue to serve people who should have been cut off.

After speaking to the owner on more than one occasion about it and nothing changing, I had enough and quit. I don't need it. I have a good reputation and will not be part of that.

Do you realize that if one of these people left your bar and got into an accident and killed someone, the first thing the cops are going to ask is where their coming from. And you can be liable for a serious lawsuit up to and including losing your liquor license and your bar. That's right, it's your (@$%&#!)!

The issue of knowing when to cut someone off is, in my opinion, the most important thing about having a bar. That and checking ID!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:59 am 
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Alan B wrote:
I am going to give you a piece of advice that's probably the single most important aspect of all: Knowing when to cut off someone who's had too much to drink.

I've quit a job doing karaoke for a bar because I would see people being served who couldn't even stand. And then leave in that condition. Many times I've told the servers that someone should be cut off. I've spoken to the owner about this problem also. The response was "What am I supposed to do". This is an owner who is rarely there and watches the place at home by cameras. Well, it's not my job to police the area. It's the owners responsibility to handle it.

As a result of people being over-served, I can't tell you how many close calls I've had with some drunk almost knocking over my table. I have too much invested in my equipment to have it trashed because the bar will continue to serve people who should have been cut off.

After speaking to the owner on more than one occasion about it and nothing changing, I had enough and quit. I don't need it. I have a good reputation and will not be part of that.

Do you realize that if one of these people left your bar and got into an accident and killed someone, the first thing the cops are going to ask is where their coming from. And you can be liable for a serious lawsuit up to and including losing your liquor license and your bar. That's right, it's your <span style=font-size:10px><i>(@$%&#!)</i></span>!

The issue of knowing when to cut someone off is, in my opinion, the most important thing about having a bar. That and checking ID!


That is very good advice. Thank you. I do believe that would be covered in the first post in line 12 :)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:06 am 
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mrscott wrote:
Alan B wrote:
I am going to give you a piece of advice that's probably the single most important aspect of all: Knowing when to cut off someone who's had too much to drink.

I've quit a job doing karaoke for a bar because I would see people being served who couldn't even stand. And then leave in that condition. Many times I've told the servers that someone should be cut off. I've spoken to the owner about this problem also. The response was "What am I supposed to do". This is an owner who is rarely there and watches the place at home by cameras. Well, it's not my job to police the area. It's the owners responsibility to handle it.

As a result of people being over-served, I can't tell you how many close calls I've had with some drunk almost knocking over my table. I have too much invested in my equipment to have it trashed because the bar will continue to serve people who should have been cut off.

After speaking to the owner on more than one occasion about it and nothing changing, I had enough and quit. I don't need it. I have a good reputation and will not be part of that.

Do you realize that if one of these people left your bar and got into an accident and killed someone, the first thing the cops are going to ask is where their coming from. And you can be liable for a serious lawsuit up to and including losing your liquor license and your bar. That's right, it's your <span style=font-size:10px><i>(@$%&#!)</i></span>!

The issue of knowing when to cut someone off is, in my opinion, the most important thing about having a bar. That and checking ID!


That is very good advice. Thank you. I do believe that would be covered in the first post in line 12 :)

Yes, that would be my number one priory. This same bar I talk about above also got nailed for serving and under age person and not checking their ID. An under cover cop nailed them.

Like I said, these two things would be my #1 issue.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:09 am 
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Like I said, these two things would be my #1 issue.[/quote]

Yep,, I have seen the exact same thing too. It goes back to training from the management and knowing what expectations are from the staff.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:51 am 
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I owned a bar for five years and I can tell you that not a single one of your rules were used and it was a wildly successful bar.

No drinking while on the job? Ha! Fat chance enforcing that rule. No significant others on the premises? We demanded their SOs hang out. Advertising? Word of mouth had our place packed from day one. Hire a bunch of managers? Not necessary when people are willing to work for free. Occasionally I would hire someone just to handle bus service, but that was only on rare occasions. We violated all the rules. I didn't even have a liquor license and never stopped serving past state law closing times. Actually thats not true. I had a vintage out-of-state liquor license from from like the 20s that was a work of art and was displayed in an ornate frame. I think the only rule we had was no dancing on the bar which my wife violated at every opportunity. You're not going to believe me when I tell you what our secret was.....No Cover Charge and FREE FOOD, yeah. Free food man. People loved that. We didn't charge for drinks or beer/wine either. Swear to God. Check it out.....The Two Crows Pub.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri-J4ymDVa0&t=1s

That's me hogging the stage in the green shirt and that's my wife in the white top dancing on the bar. Man I miss that place. Good times.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:16 pm 
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Cseeger wrote:
I owned a bar for five years and I can tell you that not a single one of your rules were used and it was a wildly successful bar.

No drinking while on the job? Ha! Fat chance enforcing that rule. No significant others on the premises? We demanded their SOs hang out. Advertising? Word of mouth had our place packed from day one. Hire a bunch of managers? Not necessary when people are willing to work for free. Occasionally I would hire someone just to handle bus service, but that was only on rare occasions. We violated all the rules. I didn't even have a liquor license and never stopped serving past state law closing times. Actually thats not true. I had a vintage out-of-state liquor license from from like the 20s that was a work of art and was displayed in an ornate frame. I think the only rule we had was no dancing on the bar which my wife violated at every opportunity. You're not going to believe me when I tell you what our secret was.....No Cover Charge and FREE FOOD, yeah. Free food man. People loved that. We didn't charge for drinks or beer/wine either. Swear to God. Check it out.....The Two Crows Pub.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri-J4ymDVa0&t=1s

That's me hogging the stage in the green shirt and that's my wife in the white top dancing on the bar. Man I miss that place. Good times.


5 years eh? And that is "successful"?? Looks more like a clubhouse at someone's house rather than a true business. We had one of those "bootleg" type establishments locally, until the feds raided it, and the the old man died from cancer. Glad you had fun, but what I would be looking at is one that is ran properly and legally and for the long haul. Five years is what I would expect my microwave to work, not my business.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:09 am 
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mrscott wrote:

5 years eh? And that is "successful"?? Looks more like a clubhouse at someone's house rather than a true business. We had one of those "bootleg" type establishments locally, until the feds raided it, and the the old man died from cancer. Glad you had fun, but what I would be looking at is one that is ran properly and legally and for the long haul. Five years is what I would expect my microwave to work, not my business.



I figured the description would be fairly obvious, but if not surely the title of the video would be. But yeah, you've cracked the case. Guilty as charged....home bar. I'm hoping that it was just my delivery and this is not as humorless a forum as it might appear to be. I suck at being serious.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:25 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:25 am 
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Cseeger wrote:
No drinking while on the job? Ha! Fat chance enforcing that rule.
All bars around here enforce this rule, it's state law and bars that do not are fined and/or shut down.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:24 pm 
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i agree, Alan B

in the county where i grew up, i remember the day a certain family themed restaurant came to our town in the early 1990s. i worked up the street at the grocery store as a teen and suddenly their employees would stop by. when i was in college, one of the dudes on my floor was a manager at that restaurant. i ate there a handful of times.

last year in november, maybe marking 25 years after that family themed restaurant came to our town and employed countless people, fed countless people, a regular there had too much to drink and killed a young local cop who stopped someone for a traffic violation on the same street as the restaurant.

by this november, a year later that certain family themed restaurant finally shut down after the court trial and a very devastated cop's family. the family themed restaurant didn't renew their liquor license they just decided to fold up.

one single guy or maybe two if you count the bartender just ruined 25 years of business for everybody. and i can't imagine the young cop's family. he was still in his 20s. i think the cop is practically the same age as the venue when the family themed restaurant came to our area.

when it came to our area 25 years ago, i felt like our area was finally starting to bring in fun-themed, big named venues like that. it kicked off the fuddruckers that would later come by, and places like that. it was no longer just mcdonald's holding down the street.

devastating lesson.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:59 am 
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What about the applicant who asks for a break every 3 or 4 hours so he can bang up some heroin or meth? Why in the hell should a business owner have to capitulate to the addiction of an employee?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:27 am 
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dadman wrote:
What about the applicant who asks for a break every 3 or 4 hours so he can bang up some heroin or meth? Why in the hell should a business owner have to capitulate to the addiction of an employee?


No one has to capitulate to an employee's addiction, but you're not getting it.

Putting aside the obvious difference (legality), there's a practical consideration here--you're trying to hire the best people you can, and smoking is a very common addiction among talented waitstaff, and heroin and meth are not.

You're absolutely right--you have the right to refuse to hire smokers. I hope like hell all my competitors do it and I'll have the best waitstaff in town, because I'll hire up their best people in a heartbeat.

Employee smoking on the job is simply not a big deal, as long as you hire people who prioritize guest experience. I know that firsthand, which is different from speculation. I don't smoke (anything) but I don't have a big attitude toward it, because it's not productive.

Most people don't understand business at all. Business planning is damned hard, and KJs' pet peeves do not comprise a business plan. It's a damned hard business, full of financial and structural and mechanical and marketing and compliance and personnel issues that most people can't imagine. There are far more ways to fail at it than to succeed.

When I hear someone start out with "If I owned a bar..." I'm listening to someone who'll be damned lucky if they don't go through with it. Anyone who thinks the main issue is hiring non-smokers is like a blind man who thinks an elephant is shaped like a toenail


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