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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:40 am 
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Have to disagree here. I'm not doing it to help my competition. If my acceptance of a low rate keeps them from getting a higher price so be it. But then again as a Christian I have learned to be content with what I have rather than being greedy. There's not a lot of luxuries in life that is important to me I have all I need in life, a roof over my head, food, good enough health, transportation etc. I don't have to work period. I work because I want to and choose to do work that I enjoy. I would rather do work that I enjoy doing for crap money than make millions at a job that I hate to do. Guess I have it better than most of you capitalistic losers. Like Lone Ranger, I personally think that people should work because they want to than because they have to to survive. They should work for the luxuries in life rather than the necessities in life.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:16 am 
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Alan B wrote:
The bottom line is: your hobby is making it harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously and get paid the amount we deserve. Your hobby is sending the message to bar owners everywhere that karaoke is nothing more than cheap entertainment in which they can pay next to nothing for.


It is not sending bar owners a message, since the non-profit club, and the for profit have different goals, and travel in different ecosystems. The hosting business is like any other business, it is all based on supply and demand. In the old days a considerable investment was required to go into business, there were few hosts, and they could command high wages. One thing that has really hurt karaoke as a business, is the advance in technology, especially the last few years. Now anyone for a rather small amount of capital can start a business. I recently saw a host that had dropped his Compuhost 3 and was using some kind of, I know I am spelling this wrong Sligo streaming system for content? So technology has made it possible for almost anyone to start a karaoke business.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:16 am 
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DannyG2006 wrote:
If my acceptance of a low rate keeps them from getting a higher price so be it.

I know you may not care because it seems that, from your statement above, you are a very selfish person. But let me spell it out for you... What you are doing is bringing the acceptable rate of $150+ down even further. Yes, by accepting a rate substantially lower, you are helping to set a trend among bar owners that they can pay anything they want and that karaoke entertainment has no value. This has an effect on all of us looking to acquire future jobs. It makes it harder to ask for a higher dollar amount, even though we are worth it, because the owner knows that there are people who will do it for next to nothing or free.

This is not how a person runs a business. And if it is a hobby... then you should keep it at home. You shouldn't be bringing your "hobby" into a commercial establishment.

If you needed a wedding photographer, would you hire someone who does photography as a hobby? Or in his spare time? Or for charity? Someone who will only charge you $100 for the day?

OR... would you hire a seasoned professional, who's business is photography? Someone who knows about cameras, lighting, posing, composition, depth of field, rule of thirds, ISO, aperature, shutter speed, bokeh, lenses, etc. Someone who might cost you a lot more but you can be guaranteed your pictures will be beautiful.

The point is a hobbyist has no business trying to be a professional photographer and as such should not even try. And you shouldn't try to be a karaoke host. You are a disgrace to the industry. If you're a hobbyist, stay home. You don't belong in a professional enviorment only making things worse for the rest of us in the industry.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:18 am 
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Alan B wrote:
Look... because of a market over saturated with karaoke hosts... who operate illegally and try to under cut legitimate hosts, the market has already taken a huge dive in what we make in wages. What was once a very respectable business, commanding a going rate of $200 to $300 a night has dropped significantly. And now, we have people who are willing to host for free!

So, we went form a 2 to 300 paying gig, to a gig that pays nothing. Tell me how this hasn't hurt the industry and the legitimate hosts trying to run a legal business.

There is nothing LR or Danny can say to justify their selfish decisions to run a charity and give karaoke away for free, which only contributes to giving the rest of us trying to make an honest living, the shaft.

OK... mrscott or Paradigm step in here cause I'm done with this.


Let us talk about the Elephant in the room, the advance in technology has made it possible for nearly anyone to go into the hosting business.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:28 am 
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Alan B wrote:
DannyG2006 wrote:
If my acceptance of a low rate keeps them from getting a higher price so be it.

I know you may not care because it seems that, from your statement above, you are a very selfish person. But let me spell it out for you... What you are doing is bringing the acceptable rate of $150+ down even further. Yes, by accepting a rate substantially lower, you are helping to set a trend among bar owners that they can pay anything they want and that karaoke entertainment has no value. This has an effect on all of us looking to acquire future jobs. It makes it harder to ask for a higher dollar amount, even though we are worth it, because the owner knows that there are people who will do it for next to nothing or free.

This is not how a person runs a business. And if it is a hobby... then you should keep it at home. You shouldn't be bringing your "hobby" into a commercial establishment.

If you needed a wedding photographer, would you hire someone who does photography as a hobby? Or in his spare time? Or for charity? Someone who will only charge you $100 for the day?

OR... would you hire a seasoned professional, who's business is photography? Someone who knows about cameras, lighting, posing, composition, depth of field, rule of thirds, ISO, aperature, shutter speed, bokeh, lenses, etc. Someone who might cost you a lot more but you can be guaranteed your pictures will be beautiful.

The point is a hobbyist has no business trying to be a professional photographer and as such should not even try. And you shouldn't try to be a karaoke host. You are a disgrace to the industry. If you're a hobbyist, stay home. You don't belong in a professional enviorment only making things worse for the rest of us in the industry.



Excuse me Alan there is no Karaoke Hosting Union, no scale set for paying a host, every host is an independent operator setting their own prices, and then having to justify them. Each host is responsible for his own operation, that is the way it has always been, unless you are working for a larger karaoke hosting company, as their local operator. Danny has what he needs, that is good for Danny, you get what you ask for, if you can get it I don't have a problem with that!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:35 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Excuse me Alan
You're excused.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:45 am 
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Alan B wrote:
If you needed a wedding photographer, would you hire someone who does photography as a hobby? Or in his spare time? Or for charity? Someone who will only charge you $100 for the day?

OR... would you hire a seasoned professional, who's business is photography? Someone who knows about cameras, lighting, posing, composition, depth of field, rule of thirds, ISO, aperature, shutter speed, bokeh, lenses, etc. Someone who might cost you a lot more but you can be guaranteed your pictures will be beautiful.


It all depends. In some cases, it's very much a "you get what you pay for" situation (that's not to say anything about Lone Ranger or Danny's performance as a host). In some cases, there are people with great reputations who can afford to charge more, and someone starting out will charge less to get more gigs. It's no different than doing promotions in any other business--loss leaders to increase revenue by volume as opposed to increasing revenue by margin. And, in some cases, they're just cheap and they suck. And, sometimes, people get what they can afford. I've been to weddings with a $10K photographer and videographer, and weddings where a friend did it, and all sorts of points in between.

Same with tattooing--I've got some great pieces that I paid out the nose for. I have one I got for free because it was on a tv show (then again, with the travel cost, I probably broke even). And I also have some great pieces from apprentices that I paid little to nothing for (and those were more for sentimentality than anything--I worked for a tattoo artist as an undergrad, and once his son turned 18 and started apprenticing himself, I needed to get something by a kid whose diapers I changed, and the others were from someone who used to work for me, who left to follow her dream of tattooing).

Alan B wrote:
The point is a hobbyist has no business trying to be a professional photographer and as such should not even try. And you shouldn't try to be a karaoke host. You are a disgrace to the industry. If you're a hobbyist, stay home. You don't belong in a professional enviorment only making things worse for the rest of us in the industry.


Or, do what you want, and don't listen to anyone else.

Karaoke seems like a very regional business--what LR or Danny charge has no impact on what you charge for a variety of reasons, but one of them is you guys are not competing with each other. In the town I'm in now, pre-pandemic, most hosts were what you'd call hobbyists (I'd call it a side hustle) because the bulk of their income was made from their day jobs. The ones who did it as a full-time business made most of their money on private events, weddings, and the like. The few times I did it as a subcontractor due to host's commitments, I made somewhere between $100 and $150 for the night and, if that is the going rate, there's no way I'd consider doing something like that full time as I'd prefer not to take a pay and benefits cut. So, whether it's a side gig, a "hobby," or something else, I'm glad those folks do it, because if they didn't, we'd possibly have no karaoke in the area at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:00 am 
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If you have to pay taxes, pay into medicare and social security, and take deductions for your business expenses, then it is indeed a business, at least according to the IRS. If I earn anymore money than I'm taking in now, I would also be pushed into a higher tax bracket, if you are uneasy about not getting paid, speak to the non-profit about getting a charitable deduction for your work.


P.S. For my book if you are getting paid you are a professional, if you are paying taxes and having to file as a business you are a business. For karaoke to be classified as a hobby you have to earn under 400.00 a year, at least as far as the taxman is concerned.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:21 am 
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Alan B wrote:

The point is a hobbyist has no business trying to be a professional photographer and as such should not even try. And you shouldn't try to be a karaoke host. You are a disgrace to the industry. If you're a hobbyist, stay home. You don't belong in a professional enviorment only making things worse for the rest of us in the industry.



The hobbyist can do what they want since they are not a for profit business. What if your hobby is superior to the so called paid professional aka the Elk's lodge host? Should it be dismissed out of hand? Do things only have a value if people think there is a value, like in stocks? What If I choose not to stay home? In my opinion a non-profit is not a professional environment. The Post or Lodge exists to serve and support it's members, the members are not supposed to serve and support the KJ. Just my opinion of course.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:26 am 
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Lone Ranger and Danny.

Both of you really do seem to be very nice gentlemen with Christian like qualities. I commend you for that. Giving of one's self is an admirable trait. However, when you are "giving" to those who truly don't need the sacrifice, then you are being taken advantage of, whether it by your own choice or not. And if by this "giving" you are doing, is taking away from someone else's livelihood, then you are doing a very big disservice to everyone. I know you mean well, that is evident. But like Alan has said already, by you donating and setting your value so low that these bar/lodge owners are taking advantage of it. You are saying to the rest of the industry that "karaoke" has low to no value. Most of us, including you two, have spent thousands of dollars on gear and music. We have invested countless hours in honing our craft, only to have it taken over by people who aren't qualified to be hosts. I am not saying that you aren't good men, nor that you are bad hosts. What I am saying is what you are doing to the industry is appalling. These clubs and lodges who think that they can pay a pittance for entertainment, while they are making huge profits, and you are letting them get away with it. You are feeding their "cash cow". If these clubs or lodges are struggling to make ends meet, that is their problem. Choices that they make are leading to their own ends. No amount of charity is going to fix that. In fact, I believe you are hurting them. It's like teaching your teenage child how to be responsible with money. Sooner or later, they have to stand on their own, or they will never know the value of hard work and sacrifice.

Providing charity work is great, when it is for a true "charity". These clubs and bars are in it for profit, no matter how you look at it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:26 am 
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mrscott wrote:

Providing charity work is great, when it is for a true "charity". These clubs and bars are in it for profit, no matter how you look at it.


A non-profit by definition is exactly that, other venues like bars and restaurants are for profit. Naturally I don't do private parties, weddings etc etc etc for free, I charge then. The mission of the non-profit is to pretty much break even, and to have some surplus in case of emergency. Many of the buildings in the area of the non profits are well over 50 years old. The services these non-profits offer to the community include helping Veterans and their families, providing support to the local Salvation Army and other community support agencies. 3 out of 5 are definitely on the ropes, and are on the verge of imploding. I simply choose not to sit home and let that happen, without trying to do something. If I try and fail it's no big deal, you have to expect to get hurt when jousting with Wind Mills.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:45 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:

Providing charity work is great, when it is for a true "charity". These clubs and bars are in it for profit, no matter how you look at it.


A non-profit by definition is exactly that, other venues like bars and restaurants are for profit. Naturally I don't do private parties, weddings etc etc etc for free, I charge then. The mission of the non-profit is to pretty much break even, and to have some surplus in case of emergency. Many of the buildings in the area of the non profits are well over 50 years old. The services these non-profits offer to the community include helping Veterans and their families, providing support to the local Salvation Army and other community support agencies. 3 out of 5 are definitely on the ropes, and are on the verge of imploding. I simply choose not to sit home and let that happen, without trying to do something. If I try and fail it's no big deal, you have to expect to get hurt when jousting with Wind Mills.

You are missing the whole point that mrscott and myself have been trying to get across. The only one who wins in this situation is the clubs/bars/lodges who are basically getting free entertainment. Entertainment that they're profiting from. Your actions only hurt the rest of us and the industry as a whole. And that is the point.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:49 am 
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That is your point which you are entitled to, it is not my point.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:54 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
That is your point which you are entitled to, it is not my point.



P.S. So your argument is that I should do nothing to keep you in the black? I should let all of these organizations go under, and end their contributions to the community? Does that mean we should stop supporting our military because now they are paid professionals, no more citizen Army? Are we all just a bunch of KJ Mercenaries selling our sword to the highest bidder?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:55 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
That is your point which you are entitled to, it is not my point.


Think about it rationally and not letting your ego make choices for you. Take a step back and see what you would do if the roles were reversed.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:02 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
That is your point which you are entitled to, it is not my point.



P.S. So your argument is that I should do nothing to keep you in the black? I should let all of these organizations go under, and end their contributions to the community? Does that mean we should stop supporting our military because now they are paid professionals, no more citizen Army? Are we all just a bunch of KJ Mercenaries selling our sword to the highest bidder?


You have to ask yourself this,,,, is this particular lodge you are looking at hosting actually giving to those charities? Or are they just padding their books, like so many of them do, so they don't HAVE to be profitable....never giving back to the ones that they are supposed to be supporting. I am not saying that is the case here, but from our standpoint, they don't seem to be making good decisions in the first place and they are looking for a handout from people like yourself.

If you want to do good and make sure your efforts are not wasted, why not give directly to places like the Salvation Army, or volunteer time in soup kitchens? Or wherever the real need is. These bars, clubs and lodges do not "need" freebies, they need to get their acts together and make good business decisions. They may be called "non-profits", but I can guarantee that they are profitable. Because if they aren't, they will be closing their doors, not for the lack of caring, but the lack of common business sense.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:07 am 
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mrscott wrote:
If these clubs or lodges are struggling to make ends meet, that is their problem. Choices that they make are leading to their own ends.

Exactly. This is evident by the fact that the Elks Lodge decided to keep on a person who has no experience in running a karaoke show. Someone not very dependable since he's never on time and in which so much singing time has been wasted due to his equipment failure or not knowing what the hell he's doing. He has caused people to get disgusted and walk out.

Yet, if the lodge actually hired a real karaoke host who knew what he was doing, the lodge could have actually made double or even triple the amount of money they made with this guy. Actually, they lost money with him.

So, yes... this their doing. Choices have consequences. And if the lodge goes under it's by them making the wrong choices. All of this lies with them. And you should not be offering them charity which only hurts all of us who've worked so hard to maintain a real karaoke business. Stop trying to be the "savior of the world". You are only being taken advantage of and hurting the rest of us.

The fact that the lodge asked you to oversee or train this guy is definitely taking advantage of you. In fact I find it insulting.

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Last edited by Alan B on Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:11 am 
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Alan B wrote:
mrscott wrote:
If these clubs or lodges are struggling to make ends meet, that is their problem. Choices that they make are leading to their own ends.

Exactly. This is evident by the fact that the Elks Lodge decided to keep on a person who has no experience in running a karaoke show. Someone not very dependable since he's never on time and in which so much singing time has been wasted due to his equipment failure or not knowing what the hell he's doing. He has caused people to get disgusted and walk out.

Yet, if the lodge actually hired a real karaoke host who knew what he was doing, the lodge could have actually made double or even triple the amount of money they made with this guy. Actually, they lost money with him.

So, yes... this their doing. Choices have consequences. And if the lodge goes under it's by them making the wrong choices. All of this lies with them. And you should not be offering them charity which only hurts all of us who've worked so hard to maintain a real karaoke business. Stop trying to be the "savior of the world". You are only being taken advantage of and hurting the rest of us.


If I could give this a hundred "thumbs up", I would!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:20 am 
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mrscott wrote:

Think about it rationally and not letting your ego make choices for you. Take a step back and see what you would do if the roles were reversed.



I thought we were having an exchange of ideas, in such exchanges rationality has little to do with it. Go ahead and take a step back, the greater good is more important than the benefit of a few. Like has been pointed out what me and Danny do is having no effect on your local community. Unless there is someone local who feels the same way?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:24 am 
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mrscott wrote:
Alan B wrote:
mrscott wrote:
If these clubs or lodges are struggling to make ends meet, that is their problem. Choices that they make are leading to their own ends.

Exactly. This is evident by the fact that the Elks Lodge decided to keep on a person who has no experience in running a karaoke show. Someone not very dependable since he's never on time and in which so much singing time has been wasted due to his equipment failure or not knowing what the hell he's doing. He has caused people to get disgusted and walk out.

Yet, if the lodge actually hired a real karaoke host who knew what he was doing, the lodge could have actually made double or even triple the amount of money they made with this guy. Actually, they lost money with him.

So, yes... this their doing. Choices have consequences. And if the lodge goes under it's by them making the wrong choices. All of this lies with them. And you should not be offering them charity which only hurts all of us who've worked so hard to maintain a real karaoke business. Stop trying to be the "savior of the world". You are only being taken advantage of and hurting the rest of us.


If I could give this a hundred "thumbs up", I would!!!


The IF is big about hiring a real host.

If IF's and butt's were candy and nuts, we would all be fat wouldn't we?


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