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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:38 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
I'm not taking any paying gig from any host,

True, while you may not be literally taking gigs away, you're sending a message to bar owners that karaoke is a worthless, low paying form of entertainment. You are also encouraging venue owners to pay us less money then we're worth or even try to get us to do it for free.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
I am expanding the patron base for all hosts. What you see as an direct attack against your interests might in the long run be the only way forward. Only time will tell.

The patron base. Let me say that again... The Patron Base. What a bunch of gobbledygook. The Patron Base! Wow! What the F are you talking about?

The only way forward is for you to totally get out of the business. That means no freebees at public places which can only hurt the rest of us and this industry. You may not see it but you are contributing to the decline of karaoke. By offering to work for free, you are conveying the message that karaoke is a worthless form of entertainment. One that has no value. And one in which, the karaoke host, need not be paid a fair amount of money, or any money at all.

Yup LR... thanks for you great contribution to KJ's everywhere. And thanks for bringing about the decline of karaoke even further.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:48 pm 
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Expanding the patron base is not a bunch of baloney, unless you can get new people, younger people interested, eventually it will be a dying Industry. That is why so many of these non-profits are having a hard time, new young people don't want to join.

P.S. While your at it Alan why don't you hang the decline of the Roman Empire on me to, just for good measure.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:59 pm 
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Alan B wrote:

Technology is a good thing, however in this case, it's been used by many people to get into this business illegally. They no longer have to pay for their music, they steal it. Of course if you have any Christian values at all, you would be doing the right thing by purchasing your music and running a legitimate business.


It is Technology that is making having an extensive track library no longer needed. The new streaming services enable all to have a large fully legal library as long as they have good secure WiFi connections,and pay for their service. I paid for every song track I have, just because I choose who I play for, and charge them accordingly, doesn't make my enterprise illegal or illegitimate.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:35 pm 
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mrscott wrote:
I would like to see others on here from all around the country chime in and add how the industry is doing in their areas. Sadly tho, I don't think many will be adding any input here.


That's gonna be kind of tough. There are very few active participants in this thread.

The Lone Ranger wrote:
The pandemic pushed marginal venues out of business, and forced others to curtail their entertainment. That is just a cold hard fact. Just like Big Bands, bands, trio's, disco etc. had their time, so do I think it is true for karaoke, which has had a pretty long run.


It'll come around again, maybe. It's cyclical. From everything I've read, it always has been. But it is possible that a lot of it has been driven online at this point because of the pandemic. Hell, I started using Smule to participate in a group I've found on Facebook after a year of resisting that trend. I'll always prefer doing it in a bar with live people, but beggars can't be choosers. That said, I'm not exactly your typical karaoke person, either. I mean, there's not a lot of karaoke singers who post here anymore, typically. Fewer still who start karaoke-themed podcasts.

The Lone Ranger wrote:
Expanding the patron base is not a bunch of baloney, unless you can get new people, younger people interested, eventually it will be a dying Industry.


How are you going to do that? Genuinely curious. If you're talking about the patron base of the nonprofit, private clubs, that's a hard pass for me (and it's depressing to think that in many places, at 42 I'd be considered "new people, younger people). It's not an environment I enjoy, or feel comfortable in--I do a pretty good "Man in Black," but those crowds often get sketchy when you do something a) newer, and b) perceived as less... patriotic, shall we say.

Karaoke in general? In some respects, it's not anyone here's job to get "new people, younger people" interested. At least, not solely. I mean, if a bar tasks you with that objective, sure. In many college towns, the chief things that make younger people pick a place are a) "are the drinks cheap here?" and b) "what's the likelihood I get laid here versus another place?" But, in a college town, if that's the market you're going for, that market also replenishes itself cyclically every four years or so.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:37 am 
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NoShameKaraoke wrote:

The Lone Ranger wrote:
Expanding the patron base is not a bunch of baloney, unless you can get new people, younger people interested, eventually it will be a dying Industry.


How are you going to do that? Genuinely curious. If you're talking about the patron base of the nonprofit, private clubs, that's a hard pass for me (and it's depressing to think that in many places, at 42 I'd be considered "new people, younger people). It's not an environment I enjoy, or feel comfortable in--I do a pretty good "Man in Black," but those crowds often get sketchy when you do something a) newer, and b) perceived as less... patriotic, shall we say.

Karaoke in general? In some respects, it's not anyone here's job to get "new people, younger people" interested. At least, not solely. I mean, if a bar tasks you with that objective, sure. In many college towns, the chief things that make younger people pick a place are a) "are the drinks cheap here?" and b) "what's the likelihood I get laid here versus another place?" But, in a college town, if that's the market you're going for, that market also replenishes itself cyclically every four years or so.


Simple by exposing potential patrons to karaoke. How do you do that you go out and play, you don't sit at home and hope for better times. You don't stay out of the game, because someone, somewhere, is trying to bring back the glory days of 250 to 300.00 gigs. That is not going to happen, we are past that and have to be realistic. You would be surprised by some of the older people at lodges, I had an old couple who did the pussycat song, they got away with it. So I think that you would probably be able to do your shtick at the local non-profit.

I disagree, all hosts that are in business, are trying to expand constantly their patron aka venue customer base. You have to bring people in, so the venue can make money and pay you. The pay you part is what most hosts are interested in. If you cannot interest younger people in karaoke, eventually the industry will die, as the older generations pass on. You have to expand your market share and customer base, or die, it is simple.

P.S. What I find concerning is some hosts think it is better to have inferior karaoke, as long as you charge what the market will bear. Than provide superior karaoke to say a non-profit at no cost. I think we would all agree karaoke hacks give KJ's a bad name in general. Shouldn't we be more focused on doing the job right, and then charging for it?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:57 am 
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Alan B wrote:
LR, what you propose to do, host karaoke for free, is very degrading to those karaoke hosts who take their business seriously and are trying to make an honest living. Can't you see that?

Can you also see how the lodge was trying to take advantage of you by asking you to mentor or train this worthless host that they have now? Don't you find that very insulting to you? I do.

This lodge, in my opinion is pathetic. They made their bed, now let them lie in it. It has nothing to do with you trying to help. Obviously, they don't want help. They just want freebies. And you are a fool if you buy into it. Open your eyes and see what's going on.

If you feel the need to give, then like mrscott said, donate directly to the Salvation Army, Red Cross, etc. or volunteer your services at a soup kitchen and let the lodge handle their own problems. You are not Mr. Fix it. You are only making it worse for the rest of us.

Now, I have to laugh... you say you care about the people of the community but what about us? We're a part of the community, too. As someone who is in this field, you of all people should know how hard it is to get a job at a decent wage. First we have to compete with the pirates, who have brought the going rate way down, and now we have to compete with people like you and Danny who agree to work for free. How's that caring about your fellow KJ? While many of us may have or had a day job... for some, they rely on the supplemental income that karaoke brings in order to get buy.

Not everyone is in as good of a financial shape as you are. But your actions are not helping. You're giving your fellow KJ the shaft. And you are making things worse for all KJ's that you should be caring about.

As mrscott said, you may be a nice person but in this case, I have no respect for you because your decision to work for free is detrimental to the rest of us trying hard to get and maintain work at a reasonable wage. Free is not reasonable.

If your lodge folds, it will be because of their bad decisions... not because you didn't help them. So, if you do want to help someone, start with your fellow KJ. You of all people should know how challenging and difficult running a karaoke business can be. Don't make it worse than it already is. By working for free, you're doing just that.

If your lodge fails, it's because of their stupidity. So, wake up and smell the coffee.

Now, here's a suggestion: Instead of doing a stupid thing like hosting at a commercial establishment for free, which only hurts KJ's in business to make money.... just stay home and have karaoke parties. Invite your friends and family. Serve food and drinks. Everyone will be happy. And it's free! But stay out of the public venues. There's been enough damage caused to this industry already, we certainly don't need anymore.


I agree with almost everything Alan added here. The only thing I am different on is I still have some respect for you Lone Ranger. I still believe you to be a good man with good values. Even though we disagree on certain things, I still can respect your opinions. However in this case your decision to host for free is simply wrong. It's doing more harm than good that you are perceiving. You talk about looking at the greater good, well the greater good is the industry, not just this lodge you are looking to host at, or the people that you think they "might" be helping outside of their walls. I can almost certainly guarantee they aren't doing as much as you think they are. I have never seen a lodge that didn't live and die by their own internal governments and bureaucracy. They are their own worst enemies. And no amount of outside "help" is going to change their internal conflicts.

All we are asking you to do is take a step back and get past your ego of thinking you can save them. Look at the much larger picture you are facing and reconsider your level of "helping" them. Your "assistance" truly is not going to be appreciated or needed.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:13 am 
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mrscott wrote:

I agree with almost everything Alan added here. The only thing I am different on is I still have some respect for you Lone Ranger. I still believe you to be a good man with good values. Even though we disagree on certain things, I still can respect your opinions. However in this case your decision to host for free is simply wrong. It's doing more harm than good that you are perceiving. You talk about looking at the greater good, well the greater good is the industry, not just this lodge you are looking to host at, or the people that you think they "might" be helping outside of their walls. I can almost certainly guarantee they aren't doing as much as you think they are. I have never seen a lodge that didn't live and die by their own internal governments and bureaucracy. They are their own worst enemies. And no amount of outside "help" is going to change their internal conflicts.

All we are asking you to do is take a step back and get past your ego of thinking you can save them. Look at the much larger picture you are facing and reconsider your level of "helping" them. Your "assistance" truly is not going to be appreciated or needed.


I have taken a step back. It is not ego I probably can't save them, but at least I want to know I tried. There is no disgrace in failing as long as your motives are in the right places. You MR.Scott are in Utah, Alan is somewhere back East I suppose. What difference does it make if one old used host in California decides to do something, it is not going to effect you directly. Like I have stated most of the local KJ's have either gotten out of the business, or know what I'm doing, and aren't concerned once I have explained the situation to them. They agree that if there is no exposure to karaoke it will eventually die, in this area to. You and Alan believe what you say, just like I do, and I respect your abilities as hosts. I am not doing this for selfish reasons, and only provide free service to struggling local non-profits, in no way am I offering the same deal to for profit venues, which I don't want to play in anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:20 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:

I agree with almost everything Alan added here. The only thing I am different on is I still have some respect for you Lone Ranger. I still believe you to be a good man with good values. Even though we disagree on certain things, I still can respect your opinions. However in this case your decision to host for free is simply wrong. It's doing more harm than good that you are perceiving. You talk about looking at the greater good, well the greater good is the industry, not just this lodge you are looking to host at, or the people that you think they "might" be helping outside of their walls. I can almost certainly guarantee they aren't doing as much as you think they are. I have never seen a lodge that didn't live and die by their own internal governments and bureaucracy. They are their own worst enemies. And no amount of outside "help" is going to change their internal conflicts.

All we are asking you to do is take a step back and get past your ego of thinking you can save them. Look at the much larger picture you are facing and reconsider your level of "helping" them. Your "assistance" truly is not going to be appreciated or needed.


I have taken a step back. It is not ego I probably can't save them, but at least I want to know I tried. There is no disgrace in failing as long as your motives are in the right places. You MR.Scott are in Utah, Alan is somewhere back East I suppose. What difference does it make if one old used host in California decides to do something, it is not going to effect you directly. Like I have stated most of the local KJ's have either gotten out of the business, or know what I'm doing, and aren't concerned once I have explained the situation to them. They agree that if there is no exposure to karaoke it will eventually die, in this area to. You and Alan believe what you say, just like I do, and I respect your abilities as hosts. I am not doing this for selfish reasons, and only provide free service to struggling local non-profits, in no way am I offering the same deal to for profit venues, which I don't want to play in anyway.


It's truly simple. You are changing the game with setting a precedent that karaoke isn't worth paying for. Even for these non-profit organizations, they need to be paying for entertainment. Period. Word will spread.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:38 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
You would be surprised by some of the older people at lodges, I had an old couple who did the pussycat song, they got away with it. So I think that you would probably be able to do your shtick at the local non-profit.


The lodges have been more welcoming in general than some of the other private clubs (I have had a good time at a Moose lodge once or five times) but the more militarily associated ones tend to not like it when I do songs that tilt politically left, or when I bring my boyfriend and we look like a couple. I pass for straight (stocky bald guy with tattoos, deep singing voice) so solo it's less of an issue.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:22 am 
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NoShameKaraoke wrote:

The lodges have been more welcoming in general than some of the other private clubs (I have had a good time at a Moose lodge once or five times) but the more militarily associated ones tend to not like it when I do songs that tilt politically left, or when I bring my boyfriend and we look like a couple. I pass for straight (stocky bald guy with tattoos, deep singing voice) so solo it's less of an issue.



In California this is less of an issue, many of the military non-profits welcome all even gays, since there are some gay ex-service members. After all the goal is to get bodies to join, not discourage paying patrons.


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:23 am 
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[quote="The Lone Ranger"][quote="NoShameKaraoke"]

Sorry for double post.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:35 am 
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mrscott wrote:

It's truly simple. You are changing the game with setting a precedent that karaoke isn't worth paying for. Even for these non-profit organizations, they need to be paying for entertainment. Period. Word will spread.



The game has been changing without any help from me. Karaoke today isn't where it was 25 years ago when I started. It won't be the same going forth, you have shrinking job openings, a pandemic, and the march of Technology which will further drive down wages for hosts. You have to grow your market share, or pretty soon there will be no karaoke nights. You have to promote and expose the public to karaoke in order to keep attention focused, other wise it will be like Mills think this is for older people. It might seem a radical concept to you, but to me it makes sense. 7 years ago I hung up my speakers, at that time I thought karaoke would continue 10 more years, there is still 3 to go.

P.S. So let me get this straight, you don't have as big a problem with an inferior host as long as he is charging for his services, as apposed to a superior host who isn't. You see the inferior as the better policy option? Maybe because you can't counter a competent host who is not driven by money, but rather by karaoke itself, and is community focused?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:02 am 
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I don't think you are as worried about my failure, as you are worried that for some reason I might succeed!

P.S. By the way it was Alan who encouraged me to get back in the game, buy the EV 50 for my two large halls, I have already signed up the 3 non-profits who are struggling, to open new nights, and a Sunday afternoon show.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:16 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
I don't think you are as worried about my failure, as you are worried that for some reason I might succeed!


That is a crock of doo doo. Your success means the end of a business model. Karaoke is a business, not just something some people "do". Sure, singing goes on every day, everywhere. But seriously to purposely sabotage the business end of it is not only wrong, it's truly despicable.

I will agree that the face and mode of karaoke has changed, and we as hosts need to adapt or die, but to make it no longer profitable for the hosts just so people can still sing at bars and clubs?? That goes against everything that the American dream stands for. I know success can be measured in many different ways, but in this particular case success is measured in dollars, not happy campers. IT'S A BUSINESS, NOT A CHARITY.

Why don't you try this methodology on restaurants? Make it so that everybody eats free. Or that everyone gets a free house, car,,, oh and while you are at it, they get a big fat government subsidy to live on so they don't have to actually work at a job. After all, if you have your way, it's the new world ya know.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:23 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
P.S. By the way it was Alan who encouraged me to get back in the game, buy the EV 50 for my two large halls, I have already signed up the 3 non-profits who are struggling, to open new nights, and a Sunday afternoon show.


3 potential shows that might actually be a paying show for someone else. Let's do the math.

$150 per show X 3 = $450 per week
$450 per week =$23,400 year

That's $23,400 that is not going into some karaoke host's bank account. Money that literally may mean the difference between having to move to a new area to look for work, or being able to put food on the table, or paying bills or not.

All because of your idealistic belief that you can "save" a bar, single handedly by being "nice" and give them free hosting time. You truly should be ashamed of yourself.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:38 am 
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mrscott wrote:

That is a crock of doo doo. Your success means the end of a business model. Karaoke is a business, not just something some people "do". Sure, singing goes on every day, everywhere. But seriously to purposely sabotage the business end of it is not only wrong, it's truly despicable.

I will agree that the face and mode of karaoke has changed, and we as hosts need to adapt or die, but to make it no longer profitable for the hosts just so people can still sing at bars and clubs?? That goes against everything that the American dream stands for. I know success can be measured in many different ways, but in this particular case success is measured in dollars, not happy campers. IT'S A BUSINESS, NOT A CHARITY.

Why don't you try this methodology on restaurants? Make it so that everybody eats free. Or that everyone gets a free house, car,,, oh and while you are at it, they get a big fat government subsidy to live on so they don't have to actually work at a job. After all, if you have your way, it's the new world ya know.


You read your Bible Mr.Scott? Didn't Christ say "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's"?

I have removed the for profit venues from my focus, and concentrated on only the financially struggling non-profits, many whom happen to be veteran based. A big part of that American Dream is also doing what you think is right regardless of what is in it for me. Just like restaurants had to adjust to the pandemic, so does the karaoke industry. I think more good than bad will come out of this, maybe nothing will happen at all. We have three years to see what happens. Hell the pandemic won't be under control until maybe later next year, because mainly many won't take their shots. If you are really concerned about getting back to normal then everyone is going to have to do their part.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:45 am 
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mrscott wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
P.S. By the way it was Alan who encouraged me to get back in the game, buy the EV 50 for my two large halls, I have already signed up the 3 non-profits who are struggling, to open new nights, and a Sunday afternoon show.


3 potential shows that might actually be a paying show for someone else. Let's do the math.

$150 per show X 3 = $450 per week
$450 per week =$23,400 year

That's $23,400 that is not going into some karaoke host's bank account. Money that literally may mean the difference between having to move to a new area to look for work, or being able to put food on the table, or paying bills or not.

All because of your idealistic belief that you can "save" a bar, single handedly by being "nice" and give them free hosting time. You truly should be ashamed of yourself.


This would be true if they had the money to pay a host, they don't. So your position is that I should be a Mercenary host, that some how I am depriving some host from their bread and butter. Here is a bomb shell in my area no one is getting 150.00 a week, the one host who was making 200.00 a night was let go because his crowd had shrunk to 13 people. This was another gig that I had founded, for awhile I was the King of Taco/Karaoke in my area, I started all of those permanent gigs. I can't do anything by myself, the only thing I can do is crank up the music, and see what happens.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:49 am 
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mrscott wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
I don't think you are as worried about my failure, as you are worried that for some reason I might succeed!


That is a crock of doo doo. Your success means the end of a business model. Karaoke is a business, not just something some people "do". Sure, singing goes on every day, everywhere. But seriously to purposely sabotage the business end of it is not only wrong, it's truly despicable.

I will agree that the face and mode of karaoke has changed, and we as hosts need to adapt or die, but to make it no longer profitable for the hosts just so people can still sing at bars and clubs?? That goes against everything that the American dream stands for. I know success can be measured in many different ways, but in this particular case success is measured in dollars, not happy campers. IT'S A BUSINESS, NOT A CHARITY.

Why don't you try this methodology on restaurants? Make it so that everybody eats free. Or that everyone gets a free house, car,,, oh and while you are at it, they get a big fat government subsidy to live on so they don't have to actually work at a job. After all, if you have your way, it's the new world ya know.

I agree with mrscott 100%. Now, you may say that your actions are not affecting me or mrscott since we live in different states, but you are. You are affecting the industry as a whole and we are part of that industry.

We already have bar owners who don't want to pay much for karaoke entertainment. What you are doing is justifying why they shouldn't. Again, by hosting for free, you are sending the message that karaoke is worthless. A form of entertainment with no value whatsoever. And KJ's who should accept very little compensation if any at all.

I have nothing against you personally. But in this case, I can't respect you as a business man. Your methods will only hurt KJ's and make it much more difficult for those of us trying to get a hosting gig at a respectable wage.

You've asked: "should a terrible host make the same amount of mony as a good host?" The answer is a terrible host should be fired by the venue that hired him. If he's that bad, he's only a detriment to the industry. It's these kind of hosts that give karaoke a bad name. So, no... he shouldn't get paid at any price... meaning he shouldn't have a job.

On the other hand, a true professional, who has put his heart and soul into running a successful business, making karaoke nights very profitable for the bar, should be paid handsomely.

The bottom line is, karaoke has always been a popular form of entertainment. Singers get to live out their fantasies of being a rock star, and the bar makes money... and so does the host. All in all a win/win situation for all. But you want to change that.

You want to stop that from happening. You want to see the industry decline even further, and KJ's take another hit in pay. You want to send the message to bar owners that karaoke is worthless and should be free.

You are wrong and what you are doing is despicable.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:54 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
P.S. By the way it was Alan who encouraged me to get back in the game, buy the EV 50 for my two large halls, I have already signed up the 3 non-profits who are struggling, to open new nights, and a Sunday afternoon show.


3 potential shows that might actually be a paying show for someone else. Let's do the math.

$150 per show X 3 = $450 per week
$450 per week =$23,400 year

That's $23,400 that is not going into some karaoke host's bank account. Money that literally may mean the difference between having to move to a new area to look for work, or being able to put food on the table, or paying bills or not.

All because of your idealistic belief that you can "save" a bar, single handedly by being "nice" and give them free hosting time. You truly should be ashamed of yourself.


This would be true if they had the money to pay a host, they don't. So your position is that I should be a Mercenary host, that some how I am depriving some host from their bread and butter. Here is a bomb shell in my area no one is getting 150.00 a week, the one host who was making 200.00 a night was let go because his crowd had shrunk to 13 people. This was another gig that I had founded, for awhile I was the King of Taco/Karaoke in my area, I started all of those permanent gigs. I can't do anything by myself, the only thing I can do is crank up the music, and see what happens.


And why is it that they do not have the money to pay the hosts? I can guarantee it's not because of the pandemic. I don't actually know the specifics about San Diego, but most of the rest of the country, the economy is strong again. I do know of some places that did fall during the pandemic, but most of the rest are coming back stronger than before. No, it's not the pandemic, it's poor business practices that are making these lodges fail. It's their own inability to solve problems and move forward. Their own elected committees are failing miserably. They don't want to be successful, they are afraid of it actually. And you will be contributing to more owners and managers attitudes that karaoke is not a profitable business practice. Let them find out by themselves just how stupid they are by closing the doors. You are not responsible for them. Can't you see that?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 am 
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That is the whole point Alan I am no longer a businessman, just a private citizen trying to help his local community. As I have explained before I can't do more harm to an industry that is already in decline and on the ropes. There is no money to pay a host, most are working for 50 to 100.00 per gig, if they can find the work. Mr.Scott asked if I was ashamed, I would be more ashamed if I sat back and did nothing.


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