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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:03 am 
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mrscott wrote:

And why is it that they do not have the money to pay the hosts? I can guarantee it's not because of the pandemic. I don't actually know the specifics about San Diego, but most of the rest of the country, the economy is strong again. I do know of some places that did fall during the pandemic, but most of the rest are coming back stronger than before. No, it's not the pandemic, it's poor business practices that are making these lodges fail. It's their own inability to solve problems and move forward. Their own elected committees are failing miserably. They don't want to be successful, they are afraid of it actually. And you will be contributing to more owners and managers attitudes that karaoke is not a profitable business practice. Let them find out by themselves just how stupid they are by closing the doors. You are not responsible for them. Can't you see that?


I don't live in San Diego. The local non-profits here have been particularly hard hit since this is a retirement community, and several have died during the pandemic. Couple this with not being able to attract new younger members and you can see their plight very much mirrors the professional karaoke industry. We are both in declining modes, that will be hard to turn around if not impossible. I am my brother's keeper.

P.S. If everyone took the approach that it is not my problem, there would be no America to have a Dream in.


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:12 am 
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Well mrscott... he just doesn't get it. We can talk to him until we're blue in the face and he's not going to change his attitude. He thinks he's going to be some great savior for this club... but he's not. The only thing he's going to be is... taken advantage of. And you're absolutely correct, these clubs fail because of their mismanagement or put another way, their stupidity. LR is not going turn it around. To think otherwise is just as foolish as hosting karaoke for free.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:18 am 
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Alan B wrote:
Well mrscott... he just doesn't get it. We can talk to him until we're blue in the face and he's not going to change his attitude. He thinks he's going to be some great savior for this club... but he's not. The only thing he's going to be is... taken advantage of. And you're absolutely correct, these clubs fail because of their poor mismanagement or put another way, their stupidity. LR is not going turn it around. To think otherwise is just as foolish as hosting karaoke for free.



Such negativity Alan, and here I thought you were positive when it comes to karaoke. Does that only apply to karaoke you are making money off of? Like I have stated I might be taking advantage of them since I have not done a regular show in years? I might be past my prime and unable to do anything. What gets me is you are so up in arms you don't even want me to try. I'm not interested in for profit venues only those that are giving back to the community.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:29 am 
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You know something, I did do something, I got Alan and Mr.Scott on the same page for once, I guess that is a victory of sorts? :argue: :argue:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:53 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:

And why is it that they do not have the money to pay the hosts? I can guarantee it's not because of the pandemic. I don't actually know the specifics about San Diego, but most of the rest of the country, the economy is strong again. I do know of some places that did fall during the pandemic, but most of the rest are coming back stronger than before. No, it's not the pandemic, it's poor business practices that are making these lodges fail. It's their own inability to solve problems and move forward. Their own elected committees are failing miserably. They don't want to be successful, they are afraid of it actually. And you will be contributing to more owners and managers attitudes that karaoke is not a profitable business practice. Let them find out by themselves just how stupid they are by closing the doors. You are not responsible for them. Can't you see that?


I don't live in San Diego. The local non-profits here have been particularly hard hit since this is a retirement community, and several have died during the pandemic. Couple this with not being able to attract new younger members and you can see their plight very much mirrors the professional karaoke industry. We are both in declining modes, that will be hard to turn around if not impossible. I am my brother's keeper.

P.S. If everyone took the approach that it is not my problem, there would be no America to have a Dream in.


I apologize, I thought you were in the San Diego area, my bad. However, that makes no difference in our conversation. My point was that the vast majority of the country is in an economic growth period. So, it shows the the responsibility for financial success lies within the owners and management of business's. If you really want to be of assistance to those whom these non profits benefit, then give some volunteer time to them. Like suggested already, soup kitchens, VA hospital (karaoke there would be interesting), donate to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, donate blood, go find homeless vets and donate directly to them,,,,, but for the love of all that is decent, don't detract from the industry of karaoke and cheapen it less than it is already. Do you think that the word won't get out that you are "donating karaoke shows" and the managers won't be on the phones with their co-equals in other establishments? They will be bragging how they are getting free entertainment at your expense. I know you feel like what you are doing seems like a good idea, but I hate to burst your bubble,,,these non-profits are slow because of their own mismanagements, not the lack of growth by itself. You have to ask why is there such a lack of growth for these clubs? It's not because they lack entertainment, it's because no one in management saw a need to look ahead and solve issues before they became big problems. You can't help those who don't want to be helped. And by doing what you are saying you are going to do, it shoots the rest of the karaoke industry right in the foot.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:10 pm 
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mrscott wrote:

I apologize, I thought you were in the San Diego area, my bad. However, that makes no difference in our conversation. My point was that the vast majority of the country is in an economic growth period. So, it shows the the responsibility for financial success lies within the owners and management of business's. If you really want to be of assistance to those whom these non profits benefit, then give some volunteer time to them. Like suggested already, soup kitchens, VA hospital (karaoke there would be interesting), donate to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, donate blood, go find homeless vets and donate directly to them,,,,, but for the love of all that is decent, don't detract from the industry of karaoke and cheapen it less than it is already. Do you think that the word won't get out that you are "donating karaoke shows" and the managers won't be on the phones with their co-equals in other establishments? They will be bragging how they are getting free entertainment at your expense. I know you feel like what you are doing seems like a good idea, but I hate to burst your bubble,,,these non-profits are slow because of their own mismanagements, not the lack of growth by itself. You have to ask why is there such a lack of growth for these clubs? It's not because they lack entertainment, it's because no one in management saw a need to look ahead and solve issues before they became big problems. You can't help those who don't want to be helped. And by doing what you are saying you are going to do, it shoots the rest of the karaoke industry right in the foot.


And My point is this, the so called recovery is very fragile. If for instance we default on our debt which the Republicans seem happy to to, then there will be a estimated loss of 15 TRILLION dollars on the stock market. Pushing us into yes another recession. You can ladle soup if you want to, I am a KJ, talk about demeaning! How could anyone have foreseen this pandemic which has eclipsed the number of deaths of the Spanish Influenza for America.

You and Alan seem to be confused, there is no magic pot of money, no Leprechaun with his crock of gold. I again repeat there is noooooo money. The industry has shot itself in the foot, it hasn't kept up with times, and doesn't have a clue about how to proceed. When you are being swept by a Storm you drop anchor and ride it out.

You are so caught up in your own problems, you can't be objective.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:31 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:

I apologize, I thought you were in the San Diego area, my bad. However, that makes no difference in our conversation. My point was that the vast majority of the country is in an economic growth period. So, it shows the the responsibility for financial success lies within the owners and management of business's. If you really want to be of assistance to those whom these non profits benefit, then give some volunteer time to them. Like suggested already, soup kitchens, VA hospital (karaoke there would be interesting), donate to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, donate blood, go find homeless vets and donate directly to them,,,,, but for the love of all that is decent, don't detract from the industry of karaoke and cheapen it less than it is already. Do you think that the word won't get out that you are "donating karaoke shows" and the managers won't be on the phones with their co-equals in other establishments? They will be bragging how they are getting free entertainment at your expense. I know you feel like what you are doing seems like a good idea, but I hate to burst your bubble,,,these non-profits are slow because of their own mismanagements, not the lack of growth by itself. You have to ask why is there such a lack of growth for these clubs? It's not because they lack entertainment, it's because no one in management saw a need to look ahead and solve issues before they became big problems. You can't help those who don't want to be helped. And by doing what you are saying you are going to do, it shoots the rest of the karaoke industry right in the foot.


And My point is this, the so called recovery is very fragile. If for instance we default on our debt which the Republicans seem happy to to, then there will be a estimated loss of 15 TRILLION dollars on the stock market. Pushing us into yes another recession. You can ladle soup if you want to, I am a KJ, talk about demeaning! How could anyone have foreseen this pandemic which has eclipsed the number of deaths of the Spanish Influenza for America.

You and Alan seem to be confused, there is no magic pot of money, no Leprechaun with his crock of gold. I again repeat there is noooooo money. The industry has shot itself in the foot, it hasn't kept up with times, and doesn't have a clue about how to proceed. When you are being swept by a Storm you drop anchor and ride it out. You are so caught up in your own problems, you can't be objective.
You are the one that doesn't seem to get it. If the lodge has no money, then they shouldn't have entertainment. And they shouldn't expect people to provide it for free.

The reason why they have no money is because of their own mismanagement, NOT because of the pandemic. Think about this...

If I walked into a restaurant and told them I have no money, do you think they're going to feed me for free? I think not. We are providing a service in which we should be paid for. If the venue can't afford to pay someone, they shouldn't have entertainment. Bottom line.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:34 pm 
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The place you host karaoke at is immaterial. Whether it be a bar, club, restaurant or those so called "non profit" organizations, such as The Elks... you are providing a service in which you should be adequately compensated for. That is the nature of our business.

In the case of your lodge, it seems like it is poorly run. If it goes down, they bear the responsibility. It is not your problem and not yours to fix... which you won't be able to do anyway.

Not all of these clubs are mismanaged, however. Some are actually very nice and well run. Case in point...

A few years ago, I worked for an Eagles lodge. It was a really nice place and well run. It didn't look like most of these clubs, which usually have the atmosphere of a pole barn, complete with plastic tables and chairs. Nope, this one was actually very classy inside with nice décor, furniture, carpeting, and a very nice bar. I did karaoke for them twice a month. The officers all liked me and when I was there, the place would be packed and I made them money.

Anyway, they paid me $175 for the night. Usually, they would give me a tip making it a $200 night at The Eagles. The point is in a well run place with people who know what they are doing will be successful. But as mrscott pointed out... they didn't want to be successful as is evident by keeping a host detrimental to the club and it's members. A host who only drove people away. Now, if this was a regular bar, and you had a guy that was causing your customers to leave, he would have been fired in a heartbeat.

So, as you can see... not all of these places are bad. But in your case, they are idiots. And you're an idiot too if you think it's your responsibility to turn it around.... especially not getting paid for your service. I say, let the club go down. They deserve what they got coming to them. They don't want to be successful, take advantage of people, and want freebies.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:17 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
what really ruined karaoke was illegal operators driving down costs,

because they only charged the venues $50 or even less. not because they stole their music, because they had no investment, they charged nothing to do it. that got venues used to paying peanuts because these people only CHARGED peanuts if that.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
since pirates aren't interested in anything but making what they can.

and showed that by doing shows for pennies or even a beer tab. which lowered the rate for everyone.
cheap shows kill karaoke, not piracy.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
a host can't take all of the time, without giving something back, that is my view.

agreed, I do charity events for my VFW, DAV, American Legion, and Eagles Aerie, on occasion when they are doing a charity event. not every show, only a few times a year as my good deed and to help the charity. there is a difference between doing a one-off charity event and purposely trying to put other hosts out of business.
if they can not afford karaoke, they should not have karaoke. they should not get it for free.
if they can not afford NFL Sunday Ticket, they should not have Sunday Ticket. they should not get it for free.
it's no different, they want a service, they need to pay for that service.
what makes it even worse is that you have a reputation as being that damn good.
venues expecting crap for free is one thing, but you are getting venues to expect the best of the best for free so when the rest of us go to prospect....they will only pay $0 because free gets them the best.
pirates devaluing garbage karaoke is bad enough, but purposely devaluing high-quality karaoke is what will ruin the entire industry.
the industry will be better off with no karaoke at venues that can't pay.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:24 am 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
what really ruined karaoke was illegal operators driving down costs,

because they only charged the venues $50 or even less. not because they stole their music, because they had no investment, they charged nothing to do it. that got venues used to paying peanuts because these people only CHARGED peanuts if that.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
since pirates aren't interested in anything but making what they can.

and showed that by doing shows for pennies or even a beer tab. which lowered the rate for everyone.
cheap shows kill karaoke, not piracy.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
a host can't take all of the time, without giving something back, that is my view.

agreed, I do charity events for my VFW, DAV, American Legion, and Eagles Aerie, on occasion when they are doing a charity event. not every show, only a few times a year as my good deed and to help the charity. there is a difference between doing a one-off charity event and purposely trying to put other hosts out of business.
if they can not afford karaoke, they should not have karaoke. they should not get it for free.
if they can not afford NFL Sunday Ticket, they should not have Sunday Ticket. they should not get it for free.
it's no different, they want a service, they need to pay for that service.
what makes it even worse is that you have a reputation as being that damn good.
venues expecting crap for free is one thing, but you are getting venues to expect the best of the best for free so when the rest of us go to prospect....they will only pay $0 because free gets them the best.
pirates devaluing garbage karaoke is bad enough, but purposely devaluing high-quality karaoke is what will ruin the entire industry.
the industry will be better off with no karaoke at venues that can't pay.


Exactly!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:31 am 
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Well I guess it's unanimous almost, I don't agree if action isn't taken soon then there will be no karaoke in this area. You are telling me no good deed goes unpunished. Maybe so, but there is one problem, I have given my word, once I make a promise, a commitment, I follow through and do my part. My equipment has just sit for 7 years and only been used a few times a year, yes for special events at non-profits. I didn't charge them. You all see this as something bad, I view it as something positive. Once we are past the pandemic hopefully next year sometime, then I might once again retire, I'm in for the duration of the pandemic. You never know I might fall flat on my face the first night out? After all I'm trying something new and it might not work. Like I have said before I'm starting new nights not taking anyone's established gig. I have prayed about this and I have a good feeling about my enterprise aka charity work, which ever you want to call it.

P.S. There are two reasons I'm not charging, one I would feel guilty taking money from a struggling non-profit. Two I don't know if what I'm doing is worth paying for, that is what I'm trying to find out. To see if I can still deal with running a four hour show.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:38 am 
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Lone Ranger, heck we know you love karaoke, just like the rest of us. And you dislike very much what the economy, piracy, the pandemic has done to the industry. Even manufacturers have not been very growth minded. It's a huge mess all the way around, we are all in the same boat, it has been a struggle for every one of us. But what you are doing or wanting to do is compounding the problem even further down the tubes. I can't say it loudly enough, "These non profits are NOT your problem!!". If they cannot afford to have entertainment, no matter how much you would like to do it, then they should not have it just given to them. I do not know why that is so hard to understand for you? You also say it won't affect us in our various different areas of the country, but that is false. It may take time to reach us, but the "karaoke has no value" attitude will spread like wildfire. The bigger picture isn't these lodges you are looking at. The bigger picture isn't the people they say they are donating or helping out. The bigger picture is the entertainment industry as a whole, we have to protect it, as poorly in shape as it is right now. We still have to see it as a viable business and treat it such.

If you want to give a free show to start, that would be your choice. But I suggest after the initial introduction of karaoke, you NEED to be charging the lodges a good fair rate of compensation. Even if you, yourself does not want/need the money, then donate it somewhere else. But these lodges absolutely NEED to be responsible for their own success or failure, not you. You aren't going to make them smarter by you becoming more stupid.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:49 am 
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I can only hope, LR, that you have a change of heart in hosting for free. No matter how much you may like this lodge, you are hurting the industry and fellow KJ's. As pointed out, it wasn't piracy that brought the going rate down, it was pirates charging peanuts since they:

1. Have no investment in music. It's stolen.
2. Have offered to work for much less, undercutting the legitimate KJ's.
3. Have no self worth.
4. Are not running a real business in which they would have paid several thousand dollars for equipment and music.

If you think that nobody is going to know that you are hosting for free, think again. The word gets out. People talk. Other places will find out. And they'll soon realize that they can get quality entertainment for free.

If you do this, you are no better than the pirates and other worthless KJ's doing this for peanuts. So, don't do it. You'll only be hurting your reputation, your fellow KJ's and the industry as a whole. You will be helping to take away someone's livelihood since many really good KJ's will quit because they're not going to settle for $50 (if they can even get that) a night.

It seems that you care more about this stupid lodge (who created their own problems), then the industry that you are a part of. You are despicable. You say you want to help your lodge... but at what cost? One that will hurt your fellow KJ's.

There is nothing that you can say that will justify your decision to host for free.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:50 am 
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Like it or not I'm starting Oct 1st my first new show in years, let's see what happens, it might not work, then you will all be happy, and can cling to your various karaoke fiefdoms, for as long as you can.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:57 am 
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Alan B wrote:
I can only hope, LR, that you have a change of heart in hosting for free. No matter how much you may like this lodge, you are hurting the industry and fellow KJ's. As pointed out, it wasn't piracy that brought the going rate down, it was pirates charging peanuts since they:

1. Have no investment in music. It's stolen.
2. Have offered to work for much less, undercutting the legitimate KJ's.
3. Have no self worth.
4. Are not running a real business in which they would have paid several thousand dollars for equipment and music.

If you think that nobody is going to know that you are hosting for free, think again. The word gets out. People talk. Other places will find out. And they'll soon realize that they can get quality entertainment for free.

If you do this, you are no better than the pirates and other worthless KJ's doing this for peanuts. So, don't do it. You'll only be hurting your reputation, your fellow KJ's and the industry as a whole. You will be helping to take away someone's livelihood since many really good KJ's will quit because they're not going to settle for $50 (if they can even get that) a night.

It seems that you care more about this stupid lodge (who created their own problems), then the industry that you are a part of. You are despicable. You say you want to help your lodge... but at what cost? One that will hurt your fellow KJ's.

There is nothing that you can say that will justify your decision to host for free.


Alan this would be a good pitch except for one thing local hosts are already doing shows for $50.00 and their food and drink. I haven't even started and that is the current situation of karaoke here. It is not just a lodge but the local Veteran organizations also. After ex-service have given their body parts for this country, and have medical problems for the rest of their lives, it seems little to provide them with some entertainment. We have just come off wars that have been going on for over 20 years. I know that isn't my problem either, right?

P.S. You gentlemen can always pray for my failure, let us just wait and see what happens?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:09 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan this would be a good pitch except for one thing local hosts are already doing shows for $50.00 and their food and drink

Bingo! And why do you think that is? For the exact reason we've been trying to get in your head. They know some moron will do it for that price.. It's because bar owners know that they can get away with paying so low. They know that some worthless KJ will do it. And why? Because it all started with someone agreeing to work for a pittance. Now, this is what bar owners expect to pay. And if $50 isn't bad enough, you want to bring it down even further.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:14 am 
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Alan B wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan this would be a good pitch except for one thing local hosts are already doing shows for $50.00 and their food and drink

Bingo! And why do you think that is? For the exact reason we've been trying to get in your head. It's because bar owners know that they can get away with paying so low. They know that some worthless KJ will do it. And why? Because it all started with someone agreeing to work for a pittance. Now, this is what bar owners expect to pay. And if $50 isn't bad enough, you want to bring it down even further.


Until there is a full recovery no business is safe or secure. There will be no full recovery this year, hopefully later next year, until then the old rules don't apply. You want just a few expensive enclaves to ply your trade, that is not what karaoke is all about. If it makes you feel any better I am only offering the free service for 90 days, and then it will be reviewed, the show might not be picked up, and that will be the end of that gig.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:15 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan B wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan this would be a good pitch except for one thing local hosts are already doing shows for $50.00 and their food and drink

Bingo! And why do you think that is? For the exact reason we've been trying to get in your head. It's because bar owners know that they can get away with paying so low. They know that some worthless KJ will do it. And why? Because it all started with someone agreeing to work for a pittance. Now, this is what bar owners expect to pay. And if $50 isn't bad enough, you want to bring it down even further.


Until there is a full recovery no business is safe or secure. There will be no full recovery this year, hopefully later next year, until then the old rules don't apply. You want just a few expensive enclaves to ply your trade, that is not what karaoke is all about.

OMG! OMFG! OK, I'm done with this.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:30 am 
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Alan B wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan B wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan this would be a good pitch except for one thing local hosts are already doing shows for $50.00 and their food and drink

Bingo! And why do you think that is? For the exact reason we've been trying to get in your head. It's because bar owners know that they can get away with paying so low. They know that some worthless KJ will do it. And why? Because it all started with someone agreeing to work for a pittance. Now, this is what bar owners expect to pay. And if $50 isn't bad enough, you want to bring it down even further.


Until there is a full recovery no business is safe or secure. There will be no full recovery this year, hopefully later next year, until then the old rules don't apply. You want just a few expensive enclaves to ply your trade, that is not what karaoke is all about.

OMG! OMFG! OK, I'm done with this.



Alan, I think he knows and gets what we are telling him. But his own stubbornness and ego are telling him to stick with his plan, no matter what it will do to others. He is being such a narrow minded fool. Not only is he a sucker for being taken advantage of by these lodges, he is now showing he does not care what his actions will lead to.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:33 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
P.S. You gentlemen can always pray for my failure, let us just wait and see what happens?


LR, we aren't praying for failure, we only want you to listen to reason.


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