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 Post subject: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:51 am 
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Anybody here ever experiment with creating your own karaoke CDG's using the original track with vocals removed?

I get the occasional request for what I call 'B side' material from some artists. This is music that, as the name suggests, might have appeared on the back side of a popular single. A song that didn't chart, is unlikely to make it to karaoke anytime soon, if at all.

I get some requests for some really obscure stuff now and then.

I know the process of removing vocals with todays software is pretty painless, even though the quality of the results can vary dramatically from track to track.. but I thought it might be fun to put together those 'impossible to find' tracks here and there for people who request them.

Not to mention making your own parody karaoke tracks.

So who does it? Who's tried it? What are your thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:01 am 
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theCheese @ Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:51 am wrote:
Anybody here ever experiment with creating your own karaoke CDG's using the original track with vocals removed?

I get the occasional request for what I call 'B side' material from some artists. This is music that, as the name suggests, might have appeared on the back side of a popular single. A song that didn't chart, is unlikely to make it to karaoke anytime soon, if at all.

I get some requests for some really obscure stuff now and then.

I know the process of removing vocals with todays software is pretty painless, even though the quality of the results can vary dramatically from track to track.. but I thought it might be fun to put together those 'impossible to find' tracks here and there for people who request them.

Not to mention making your own parody karaoke tracks.

So who does it? Who's tried it? What are your thoughts?


Yeah, i've done it on occasion. But the vocal removers for the most part, suck. Only works acceptably about a third of the time, the rest sound horrid. I have heard of someone having success with a different way of removing vocals, but they won't share, lol.. Good luck


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:13 am 
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If you have the patience of a Saint and can put up with really crappy music, then by all means, go for it! After doing it for three songs that I really wanted, i basically wanted to go out and stab someone just to get rid of the frustration. ;)

Syncing the lyrics to a song is a hell of a lot more complicated than it looks, in my not so humble opinion, I don't know how the karaoke companies do it.

just my two cents

-James


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:17 am 
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I've had reasonable success in my recent attempts at vocal removal using Audacity using the following method:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1028843/h ... aoke_song/

Doesn't work 100% for every track.. but for the half dozen i've tried it with, it's worked well enough for use in a karaoke bar.

I need to do a little investigation into CDG authoring software.

Suggestions would be appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:22 am 
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theCheese @ Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:17 am wrote:
I've had reasonable success in my recent attempts at vocal removal using Audacity using the following method:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1028843/h ... aoke_song/

Doesn't work 100% for every track.. but for the half dozen i've tried it with, it's worked well enough for use in a karaoke bar.

I need to do a little investigation into CDG authoring software.

Suggestions would be appreciated.


I've tried the Audacity method myself too, with about the same type of results as the vocal removers do. It's much the same philosophy as each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:44 am 
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I've had quite a bit of success removing vocals from tracks using audacity, especially if you start out with a track ripped at 320 and not 128. Of course some tracks just won't come out well at all but that's part of life. You can't always get what you want. I use Karaoke Builder Studio to make my CDG files. I usually use the original track to make the graphics file and then I just swap out the original track and replace it with the track that has the vocals removed. This usually results in the graphics being perfectly in time with the music. Getting good at getting the graphics to swipe properly takes some practice but after you do a few dozen songs, you get faster at it. It used to take close to 2 hours to get one to look right but now I can usually get one done in about 30 minutes....unless it's a song that I'm totally unfamiliar with.

Some people think they sound like they're recorded in a sewer but it's better than nothing. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:54 am 
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BruceFan4Life @ Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:44 pm wrote:
I've had quite a bit of success removing vocals from tracks using audacity, especially if you start out with a track ripped at 320 and not 128. Of course some tracks just won't come out well at all but that's part of life. You can't always get what you want. I use Karaoke Builder Studio to make my CDG files. I usually use the original track to make the graphics file and then I just swap out the original track and replace it with the track that has the vocals removed. This usually results in the graphics being perfectly in time with the music. Getting good at getting the graphics to swipe properly takes some practice but after you do a few dozen songs, you get faster at it. It used to take close to 2 hours to get one to look right but now I can usually get one done in about 30 minutes....unless it's a song that I'm totally unfamiliar with.

Some people think they sound like they're recorded in a sewer but it's better than nothing. LOL


I do the same method as Bruce here,,when I have used Audacity. The big key really is if it was originally recorded in multi track, or just stereo. Multi track works better than stereo bar far. You can isolate the vocals better, because most vocals are recorded in the middle tracks. And that makes it much easier to eliminate. If recorded in stereo however, vocals are usually recorded equally on both sides and can't be eliminated. Karaoke Builder Studio works great. I do what Bruce does here as well. I have only created maybe a dozen or so songs so far that i felt were worth using for karaoke. But only one was really good. And that one, I started with a instrumental version of the song to begin with. I just got lucky to find it.

There are SO many songs out there that were never produced into a karaoke version that I know would do well. But, until the manu's can come up with a more efficient method, then they are cost prohibitive for them. We just have to do what we can when we can.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Can someone explain what is the difference between altering an mp3 by removing the vocals and then creating a lyric file and then using them together commercialy in a karaoke show versus copying an mp3+g you didn't pay for ???

hmmmmmmm????????

There is no difference !!! It's the same thing !!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:06 pm 
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jamkaraoke @ Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:04 pm wrote:
Can someone explain what is the difference between altering an mp3 by removing the vocals and then creating a lyric file and then using them together commercialy in a karaoke show versus copying an mp3+g you didn't pay for ???

hmmmmmmm????????

There is no difference !!! It's the same thing !!!!!


for personal use only


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:20 pm 
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jamkaraoke @ Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:04 pm wrote:
Can someone explain what is the difference between altering an mp3 by removing the vocals and then creating a lyric file and then using them together commercialy in a karaoke show versus copying an mp3+g you didn't pay for ???

hmmmmmmm????????

There is no difference !!! It's the same thing !!!!!


I'd say the difference would be (presumably) you paid for the mp3 track.

I play songs from CD's that i've purchased and ripped all the time at shows between singers. Same goes for music i've bought from iTunes. I paid for the music, and the venues I play pay their ASCAP/BMI fees.

What's the difference between playing the track with the vocals, and playing the track with the vocals removed?


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:31 pm 
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cheese

One of the biggest problems with KARAOKE is the sync license for the LYRICS
The mp3 presume one pays for. But you would still be altering that same mp3 by removing the vocals and using in a commercial setting.

**for the record *** I really could care less

It was just for discussion purposes to be aware that it MAY NOT be legal ?


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Well ,,, "illegal" is just a sick bird,, haha. When I was a kid, we used to turn our air cleaner covers over so our cars would sound "tough". Totally against the law where I live, but we still did it, and NOBODY cared, not even the police. How many of us have EVER just slowly "rolled" though a stop sign, well, THAT is totally against the law too! If NOBODY is hurt, including the record companies/producers/writers, then what is the harm in altering a song for our own use. We bought the song, we removed the vocals,, who the HELL cares!!! I mean, we are not marketing the final product, its just a way for us to be able to perform a song that hasn't been produced in karaoke form. Nobody is getting "screwed" here. In fact, it might even make the artist a little more "known" by someone singing their songs publically, hence more possible sales for their albums/cd's.

So, I say as long as we have bought and paid for the music, no matter what form it's in, then it's not an issue. Like slowly rolling through a stop sign, as long as nobody was in danger, WHO CARES!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:48 pm 
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jamkaraoke @ Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:31 pm wrote:
cheese

One of the biggest problems with KARAOKE is the sync license for the LYRICS
The mp3 presume one pays for. But you would still be altering that same mp3 by removing the vocals and using in a commercial setting.

**for the record *** I really could care less

It was just for discussion purposes to be aware that it MAY NOT be legal ?


I'm no lawyer.. but i'd guess the record companies concern over music licensing karaoke tracks has more to do with outfits like Sound Choice recording 'covers' of the original song and then distributing them for a profit and little to nothing to do with persons who have purchased the original track and sing along with it.

Which is to say, if Sound Choice paid the record companies $1 a song for every single copy of that song they turned into a karaoke track, they wouldn't give a crap about any additional licensing fees.

I'm sure removing the vocal tracks and singing along with them falls well within 'fair use', and using such a track at a karaoke venue would be just as legal as playing the original track at the same venue directly from the CD.

Of course, the legality of playing a CD you buy from WalMart at a bar as a DJ could be questioned as well.. since many a CD jacket has some small print 'legaleese' about being for private use only, etc etc


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:12 pm 
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It is much, much better to get a new backing track. Usually you can purchase a backing track for $5 or whatever on the Internet from a music company. Keep in mind, though, that you're not purchasing the rights to more than one copy of it when you do that. I've dealt with Tency, and they charged me 500 euros to produce a custom track, with the CDG rights, and wanted 200 euros if I wanted to market any of their existing tracks with my CDG. They did an outstanding job on the custom track, which was a very difficult song to play, but I will create my own tracks with MIDI before I will pay 200 euros for the rights to a reproduction of someone else's music that they've already sold many copies of. I also really didn't appreciate that they made the custom track that they produced for me available for sale to anyone. That's why I decided to spring for the MIDI gear and make my own music from now on. Going shopping this weekend, I hope.

Synchronizing lyrics is actually extremely easy to do, if you know the song...all you do is sing it and bang on the space bar, and there is plenty of software for this purpose. If you're artistic, you can make your own slide shows and just drop and drag those in...nothing to it.

As far as the legal rights go, I have to pay for certain rights, such as synch rights, because I'm planning to market commercially, but if I were just doing it for fun, I would be more worried about getting caught buying dope in the parking lot than I would about the rights.

-denise


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:58 pm 
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Not sure if this would even work, or if it falls more under the "Stupid Idea" category, but I was recently told that you could save an Audio copy from a video on the 'tube' place and then use audacity to remove all the lyrics and outside sounds.............. putting your words to it on the screen wasn't part of the convo.......... and he was 4 beers into a 6 beer night.

Figure it's worth tossin out there to the Pro's and see what I learn.... Peace, S.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:24 am 
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As for legality, not really but you are only liable for one "crime" and the only one that can accuse you and ask for damages is the songwriter. Assuming you have bought the cd/mp3 before you did vocal removal.

Distribution of a Karaoke version that you did of course involves many additional crimes. As many have said some artists might see a private karaoke version of their song as flattering. Generally private karaoke is going to be a list of B sides and minor artists, so don't expect the legal resources of Sony or BMI to come fighting you, they have bigger fish to fry. So long as the Karaoke version song is not distributed the songwriters are not likely to come after you either.

As for making the karaoke version, it is difficult enough that few people are going to do it if the song is already avalible as a commerical karaoke song. It is just a lot of work.


On the other hand the pirating of karaoke songs is robbing from the karaoke companies, and in that case it is rarely theft of one song usually hundreds or thousands. They are the ones that are going to catch individual KJs for pirated karaoke not the songwriters.

In my experience expect 30+ minutes a song. Even then no certainty to get it to work. Syncing lyrics is not too difficult if you have a vocal version before the vocal removal process. The lyrics are synced with that version and then the file names are switched to create the appropriate CDG+MP3 pair. This approach is not going to work well with purchased backing tracks because timing is going to be different between versions and even half a second on the sync is very noticable.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:13 am 
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I was reading through the BMI site last night, and the way that reads.. as long as the venue you're playing is paying their BMI/ASCAP fees every year, the songwriters are getting paid for every piece of music that gets played in that venue.

Paying for the respective BMI and ASCAP licences annually gives the venue the right to play the songwriters material, either from the original recording, or as a cover band playing their rendition of the song.

So again.. provided the venue has paid for their BMI & ASCAP license, there doesn't appear to be a thing illegal with removing the vocal track and adding a swipe screen with lyrics and using it in your show.

You just wouldn't be able to SELL or DISTRIBUTE your MP3+G like a karaoke disc manufacturer does. That would require entirely different licencing.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:05 am 
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The problem is that for a popular song there are many different revenue paths that all lead back to different people (or sometimes the same people)..

For karaoke it mainly comes down to the songwriter, and they are paid through ASCAP/BMI for the public performance of their work. They are also paid as a cover fee (about 7-9 cents a song) for each copy of a song made and sold. Finally they are paid for syncronization rights which includes syncing the lyrics to the song. Those rates are whatever the artist wishes to charge.

If you don't have the lyrics syncronized to a legally purchased vocal removed track you are 100% legal and there is nothing the songwriter can do to stop you provided you bought the song legally and are paying ASCAP/BMI.

If you are syncing lyrics to the song then you have put the song into an Audio-visual presentation and that officially requires approval. For a non distributed (and not sold copy) the chances of problems are slight. For home/private use the syncronization of lyrics to a legally purchased track is 100% legal so far as I can tell.

I suspect that if you wish to make a single artist Disk/set as karaoke the artist might be very accomidating (or not). It really just comes down to if the artist is flattered by the concept (they might want a few copies), greedy (and they charge a high rate) or annoyed/threatened (and they won't let you make it). Artists/Songwriters are a tempermental group and you never know how the songwriter will respond. If they are really obscure I suspect they might lean towards the flattered. If they are very successfull I suspect they might more likely be annoyed or threatened.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:10 pm 
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admaero @ Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:12 pm wrote:
It is much, much better to get a new backing track. Usually you can purchase a backing track for $5 or whatever on the Internet from a music company. Keep in mind, though, that you're not purchasing the rights to more than one copy of it when you do that. I've dealt with Tency, and they charged me 500 euros to produce a custom track, with the CDG rights, and wanted 200 euros if I wanted to market any of their existing tracks with my CDG. They did an outstanding job on the custom track, which was a very difficult song to play, but I will create my own tracks with MIDI before I will pay 200 euros for the rights to a reproduction of someone else's music that they've already sold many copies of. I also really didn't appreciate that they made the custom track that they produced for me available for sale to anyone. That's why I decided to spring for the MIDI gear and make my own music from now on. Going shopping this weekend, I hope.

Synchronizing lyrics is actually extremely easy to do, if you know the song...all you do is sing it and bang on the space bar, and there is plenty of software for this purpose. If you're artistic, you can make your own slide shows and just drop and drag those in...nothing to it.

As far as the legal rights go, I have to pay for certain rights, such as synch rights, because I'm planning to market commercially, but if I were just doing it for fun, I would be more worried about getting caught buying dope in the parking lot than I would about the rights.



What kind of dope are you selling Denise?
-denise

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 Post subject: Re: Roll your own..
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:44 am 
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Quote:
What kind of dope are you selling Denise?


I don't sell dope, and I seriously doubt that it would be appropriate to seriously suggest doing that business in this forum, so all I will say is that the drug of choice for karaoke seems to be marijuana. Ask me if I smoke it, though, and I'll take Nancy Reagan's advice and "just say no".

-denise


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