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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:14 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Given all of those facts, what do you estimate are the chances that Phoenix would do something so stupid as to send out more GEM series than are backed by fully licensed discs, much less to make a statement to an outside person that it was doing so?


JimHarrington wrote:
Consider these facts: Phoenix is well known to the people who would be harmed if it sent out unlicensed material. These people have shown very little restraint in suing Phoenix and its predecessor even when they had no case at all.


It appears Phoenix and its predecessor doing stupid things and getting sued is business as usual.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:36 pm 
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The true proof of your marvelous relationships with the publishers will be if you actually enter the production business and the quality of licensing you can acquire for your first production.

So far, the years of promises and waiting have told a story of their own.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:46 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Phoenix has now put out a statement on this issue.

https://pep.rocks/discs
Wow -- that whole long statement was necessitated because of one misunderstood phone call, and one Facebook post. There's the Domino Theory at work.

Personally I see nothing wrong with the Disc Safekeeping program policy. If I were a GEM customer I'd prefer getting the USB drive, and never having to be responsible for the safety of the discs.

But dear lord, the irony of it all. Many a KJ has posted online photos and even Youtube videos of their disc collections over the years to prove they have the original discs and that they aren't pirates. All because of Sound Choice litigation practices.

I can barely imagine how hard a few of them must be laughing now that Mr. Slep has felt the need to do the same things: post photos of his discs and publish his own justification for media shifting. As they say, what goes around comes around.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:39 am 
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bazinga wrote:
Jim, one thing I don't understand is PEP's statement on their website. It says:

"With that in mind, we revised the GEM series program in a couple of different ways. First, we reduced the initial license term to 3 years and required an annual renewal after that. That way, we maintain closer contact with our licensees."

So now because some people did not follow the terms of the lease, PEP is punishing the ones that did follow along with any new Gem Licensees.


No, the new terms only apply to new licenses. If you had an existing license, those terms govern that license.

I'm also not sure that I would describe what PEP did as "punishing" anyone. At the same time that the initial license term was reduced to 3 years, PEP also reduced the initial license fee significantly. The 5-year "total cost of licensing" under the new plan is less than under the old plan.

bazinga wrote:
PEP can just add that every lessee must contact PEP whether through email, letter, or phone call annually to update their status and to confirm they are abiding by the agreement.


We did add that requirement.

bazinga wrote:
It seems like these people provided PEP the opportunity to make "more" money off their Gem sets. The statement goes on to say:

"This solves the problem of accidental loss, theft, damage, or unauthorized sale or transfer, and it relieves our licensees of the need to store and protect our property".

If this solves the problem, why doesn't PEP leave the length of the lease to five years because PEP is holding the physical discs?


It solves one of the problems. It did not solve the problem of not having close enough contact with our licensees. And, as I noted above, the cost of a GEM series license actually went down.

bazinga wrote:
I'm sure the people who violated the lease agreement had to pay for the discs whether it was destroyed, lost, or stolen.


Actually, no. We canceled their licenses, but the expense of going after the licensees was deemed, at the time, to be a waste of money.

bazinga wrote:
Some things PEP does just rattles my mind. I'm not a PEP basher, nor do I condone how PEP is going about its business "fighting" piracy. But when I think about it, PEP is only in it for the money. Sorry Jim, but I have to believe it's all about the money and not because PEP wants to protect the lessee since they claim that the amount of Gems available are dwindling.


PEP is not a charity. It's a for-profit business. I'm not sure why that's confusing to people. PEP opposes piracy because it's in its business interest to do so, not because it feels a moral imperative to stamp out piracy.

It turns out that piracy is also bad for the industry as a whole. It deprives songwriters and publishers of their royalties. It inhibits the creation of new karaoke music. It drives down the rates that karaoke professionals can charge. It leads to oversaturation of the marketplace, so that karaoke is less effective as a tool for increasing patronage. But PEP can only use the tools that are available to it.

Given that well in excess of 90% of the people we've ever sued for infringement never bought even one karaoke disc before being sued, and given that in excess of 99% were pirates to at least some degree (fewer than 10 defendants were actually able to demonstrate full 1:1 correspondence for their systems), I'm curious as to what method of "fighting" piracy you would have preferred that we use.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:40 am 
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Despite ALL the "protection measures" PEP has taken to protect itself including making media-shifted copies of their own discs to "protect them" further.....

Sadly i know of at least (5) F-I-V-E Kjs/Djs in Hawaii right now that REGULARLY
use the PRO GEM Series they cherry-picked off the internet for free at their shows ...and they SHARE it with others for FREE! :angry: And one place uses the private SC subscription service along with Youtube to run their weekly shows... :cry:

That means that at least 20+ people have THE GEMS, continually share them, and that's ONLY in Hawaii. How many others across the U.S. got it for free and are sharing it right now as you read this? Hundreds? Thousands???

I'm just the messenger... HEAR ME PEP? ...and NOT a RAT...but believe you-me, it pis%es me off when i can't compete (song wise) "as well" because i don't have the Pro Gem Series and only a hundred or so original SC cdgs. Zoom fills in a lot of holes but contrary to mainland shows, Hawaiians and visitors alike request SC REGULARLY.

Hawaii was likely the LAST state in the U.S. that stopped using CDGs at their shows and now are like 90% digital (laptops & Cavs)....the "cavs" part because of a former pain-in-the-butt-stubborn member here that no one liked years ago decided he "hates SC and that he was going to get rich off them".
And HE HAS....He still updates, rents, and sells lots of 199's loaded and sells external drives with impunity and nobody cares or bats an eye...... :(

So get the GEMS OFF the dark web and sue idiots like the one above for distributing and causing the REAL piracy problems...

I see NO END in sight.........:no: :no: :no: :roll: :angry:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:02 am 
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Johnny, the KJs and the club owners are low hanging fruit and operate out in the open. The internet hard drive sellers and others that you describe require much more investigation and expense to nail them. It's ROI plain and simple. JH alluded to that fact in his last post about going after GEM owners that destroyed or lost their discs..... it's not worth the effort.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:32 am 
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I’ve learned that I am not very good at searching on this forum, perhaps someone can help.
I believe I read a post on this forum from Jim Harrington (sometime in the last 6 months) that he was leaving his position and association with PEP/Sound Choice.
Am I mistaken or did I read that?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:25 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Given all of those facts, what do you estimate are the chances that Phoenix would do something so stupid as to send out more GEM series than are backed by fully licensed discs, much less to make a statement to an outside person that it was doing so?

The chances are pretty high...It was pretty stupid to circumvent proper licensing in the first place for the set wasn't it?

And what are the chances that PEP still has a couple years to go in settlement payments on the last infringement lawsuit? Looking pretty high to me.

And I estimated the chances were pretty good that you and Kurt would continue to "poison the well" to the point of alienating almost every staunch supporter and customer you had. I see you did not disappoint.

Your company is such a joke - even you are leaving it behind.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:33 pm 
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RLC wrote:
I’ve learned that I am not very good at searching on this forum, perhaps someone can help.
I believe I read a post on this forum from Jim Harrington (sometime in the last 6 months) that he was leaving his position and association with PEP/Sound Choice.
Am I mistaken or did I read that?

Here you go, Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:18 am
JimHarrington wrote:
Today is my last day with Phoenix Entertainment Partners. I stepped back from my day-to-day responsibilities with the company back in August, but I have stayed on doing some behind-the-scenes work and managing my caseload. I will continue to serve as counsel in my existing cases until they are finished, but I will no longer be monitoring this board or social media, nor will I be taking questions about Phoenix via email.

I have served as counsel, in one capacity or another, for Phoenix and its predecessor since 2009. I've enjoyed my work for the company, and I've especially enjoyed being immersed in the karaoke culture. Music is one of the great interests of my life, so being a part of this in even a small way has been fulfilling in ways I never would have guessed when I walked into Kurt's office more than 8 years ago. But all good things must eventually come to an end, and it's time for me to move on to something else.

If you have questions or comments for Phoenix, I would encourage you to send them to customercare@phxep.com, where they will be handled in a timely manner by the fine staff there.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:54 pm 
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c. staley wrote:
RLC wrote:
I’ve learned that I am not very good at searching on this forum, perhaps someone can help.
I believe I read a post on this forum from Jim Harrington (sometime in the last 6 months) that he was leaving his position and association with PEP/Sound Choice.
Am I mistaken or did I read that?

Here you go, Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:18 am
JimHarrington wrote:
Today is my last day with Phoenix Entertainment Partners. I stepped back from my day-to-day responsibilities with the company back in August, but I have stayed on doing some behind-the-scenes work and managing my caseload. I will continue to serve as counsel in my existing cases until they are finished, but I will no longer be monitoring this board or social media, nor will I be taking questions about Phoenix via email.

I have served as counsel, in one capacity or another, for Phoenix and its predecessor since 2009. I've enjoyed my work for the company, and I've especially enjoyed being immersed in the karaoke culture. Music is one of the great interests of my life, so being a part of this in even a small way has been fulfilling in ways I never would have guessed when I walked into Kurt's office more than 8 years ago. But all good things must eventually come to an end, and it's time for me to move on to something else.

If you have questions or comments for Phoenix, I would encourage you to send them to customercare@phxep.com, where they will be handled in a timely manner by the fine staff there.


Thank you Chip.

Mr Harrington, for someone who claims to have left PEP on December 31st, 2017 you sure are doing a lot of posting on the behalf of PEP.
Were you less than honest in your post of Dec. 31st, 2017?
Are you still actively engaged in PEP day to day business?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:30 pm 
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mrmarog wrote:
Johnny, the KJs and the club owners are low hanging fruit and operate out in the open. The internet hard drive sellers and others that you describe require much more investigation and expense to nail them. It's ROI plain and simple. JH alluded to that fact in his last post about going after GEM owners that destroyed or lost their discs..... it's not worth the effort.


I understand and agree mrmarog....i was just venting. I'm only still "in the game" because my customers had no where else decent to go to sing with good equipment & sound, so i still host a couple of times a week.

But this Cavs/Loaded Laptop Guy is making things easier for others to get in the business for low cost/ no cost, and there's more singers-turned-hosts starting to emerge. He would be SO EASY to investigate and BUST because he operates out in the open and believes he's untouchable. He used to be a member here and on the old jolt forum. Huge Ego and not very likable because he's ALWAYS RIGHT...even when he's clearly wrong 99% of the time. Ugh. Anyways.....

As my wife says and it's good advice i should take..."Let It Go and Don't Worry because your health is more important!". I love my wife. She's right. NOT worth the stress because it changes nothing.

A couple more years (if i can fend off the under cutters) and i'll be retiring from hosting. It's just so much DAMN FUN though!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:04 pm 
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I'm basically staying out of this thread but with that being said ....
mrmarog wrote:
Johnny, the KJs and the club owners are low hanging fruit and operate out in the open. The internet hard drive sellers and others that you describe require much more investigation and expense to nail them. It's ROI plain and simple. JH alluded to that fact in his last post about going after GEM owners that destroyed or lost their discs..... it's not worth the effort.

There's a great deal of truth in that statement except for the low hanging fruit part. None of this is easy, but it's a bit more of a challenge to prosecute a KJ or venue, and especially the latter in a copyright infringement case, than it is a hard drive seller. It's a fairly involved process and one of the biggest problems with the hard drive sellers is in being able to identify them, and then serving them after you do find out who they are. If you can get past those challenges the rest is academic. But like mrmarog said, it is a matter of ROI. You'd go broke fairly quickly if you litigate cases that didn't yield any financial recompense.

johnreynolds wrote:
As my wife says and it's good advice i should take..."Let It Go and Don't Worry because your health is more important!". I love my wife. She's right. NOT worth the stress because it changes nothing.

A couple more years (if i can fend off the under cutters) and i'll be retiring from hosting. It's just so much DAMN FUN though!

I'd say your wife is a pretty wise lady. It would be sad however if you stopped doing what you have so much fun at doing. I stopped performing when it wasn't fun anymore. It was always hard work but always worth the effort. Toward the end I pretty much just did solo gigs with me and my guitar, and an occasional sax (which is actually my main instrument) gig as a fill-in because I was no longer playing in bands. For the last 6 years I was also the organist for the Providence Bruins and occasionally the Boston Bruins. As much as I love hockey even that got old after 6 years and dragging a small PA in the dead of winter in and out of clubs for a bunch of drunks who would rather hear What Do You Do With A Drunken Sailor or Margaritaville instead of Mood For A Day or a Dan Fogelberg tune, ended up wearing thin on my solo guitar gigs. Toward the end I used to post a sign with a list of fines for requesting certain songs. $50 for Stairway to Heaven, $25 for Aimie, anything by Lynyrd Skynyrd might invite a physical attack, etc. Plus at around that time Stellar started to grow exponentially so I pretty much dropped all of my performances other than the few that I regularly did in Martha's Vineyard, more or less to get a paid vacation even if it meant having to play every Grateful Dead tune that I knew. In any event, I do hope you are able to continue hosting as long as your physically able and you still enjoy it. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Bastiat wrote:
There's a great deal of truth in that statement except for the low hanging fruit part. None of this is easy, but it's a bit more of a challenge to prosecute a KJ or venue, and especially the latter in a copyright infringement case, than it is a hard drive seller. It's a fairly involved process and one of the biggest problems with the hard drive sellers is in being able to identify them, and then serving them after you do find out who they are. If you can get past those challenges the rest is academic. But like mrmarog said, it is a matter of ROI. You'd go broke fairly quickly if you litigate cases that didn't yield any financial recompense.


I would think that it would be fairly easy to identify those Hard Drive Sellers. It's called "FOLLOW THE MONEY." The Hard Drive seller is getting paid somewhere. If they are getting paid through PayPal, then a Lawyer could subpoena them for their records of where the money is going to (such as a bank account (DING!!! DING!!! DING!!!) which would have to have a REAL PERSON's name and address and even Social Security number).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:26 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
PEP is not a charity. It's a for-profit business. I'm not sure why that's confusing to people. PEP opposes piracy because it's in its business interest to do so, not because it feels a moral imperative to stamp out piracy.

It turns out that piracy is also bad for the industry as a whole. It deprives songwriters and publishers of their royalties. It inhibits the creation of new karaoke music. It drives down the rates that karaoke professionals can charge. It leads to oversaturation of the marketplace, so that karaoke is less effective as a tool for increasing patronage. But PEP can only use the tools that are available to it.

Given that well in excess of 90% of the people we've ever sued for infringement never bought even one karaoke disc before being sued, and given that in excess of 99% were pirates to at least some degree (fewer than 10 defendants were actually able to demonstrate full 1:1 correspondence for their systems), I'm curious as to what method of "fighting" piracy you would have preferred that we use.

So if PEP is totally against piracy why not just shut down the culprits? Don't offer them an out by buying the GEM series or using the HELP license. If they are guilty can't you confiscate their equipment and have them pay a fine plus all court fees? If the guilty KJ uses the HELP license they are still using the songs that they illegally acquired. I'm just trying to understand how this is helping to fight piracy. Many of us have so much invested in CDGs and legally purchased downloaded songs that allowing the pirate to use the songs they have is a slap to the face of every one of the legal KJs. Sorry, just had to vent.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:01 pm 
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cueball wrote:
I would think that it would be fairly easy to identify those Hard Drive Sellers. It's called "FOLLOW THE MONEY." The Hard Drive seller is getting paid somewhere. If they are getting paid through PayPal, then a Lawyer could subpoena them for their records of where the money is going to (such as a bank account (DING!!! DING!!! DING!!!) which would have to have a REAL PERSON's name and address and even Social Security number).


You can't just subpoena someone's PayPal records. You first have to purchase the hard drive, you then have to send that drive unopened from the package in which it was sent, to a forensics lab (we use a company in LA) to copy the drive. Then they send you a verified copy of the drive in which you can view. Fortunately most of the drives being sold are the same identical drives (at least as it pertains to my content) so tagging and documenting each infringement isn't all that time consuming, but still takes a fair amount of time to complete that task. Then you have to convince a judge to give you a subpoena. Then the fun begins. You contact the infringer and send him/her a demand letter, at which point he/she may just ignore, so you file suit, then you send a process server to his/her house and hope you can serve him/her and if not it's back to the judge to file a petition for a default judgment. It is an involved process that varies from state to state. It's not that cut and dry although I wish it were. The process usually takes between 3 and 6 months to complete and sometimes even more.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:47 pm 
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bazinga wrote:
So if PEP is totally against piracy why not just shut down the culprits? Don't offer them an out by buying the GEM series or using the HELP license. If they are guilty can't you confiscate their equipment and have them pay a fine plus all court fees? If the guilty KJ uses the HELP license they are still using the songs that they illegally acquired. I'm just trying to understand how this is helping to fight piracy. Many of us have so much invested in CDGs and legally purchased downloaded songs that allowing the pirate to use the songs they have is a slap to the face of every one of the legal KJs. Sorry, just had to vent.

PEP doesn't care about the "legal KJ" and here is the key you've overlooked:
JimHarrington wrote:
PEP is not a charity. It's a for-profit business. I'm not sure why that's confusing to people. PEP opposes piracy because it's in its business interest to do so, not because it feels a moral imperative to stamp out piracy.

PEP really doesn't have much of a product and if there was no piracy, they'd have no one to sue... and no money at all. They really don't care if someone was a pirate, if they can convert them into a "tax-paying customer" with a pirate help license, then they get paid every month. It doesn't matter to them if you spent $15,000 buying SC discs over the years as a valuable customer because you're not paying them anymore, you no longer have any value.

It's not about a "moral imperative" as he says above, it's about money. Period.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:37 am 
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8) It is hard to believe that anyone is still wasting time over this question of SC product. Jim is supposed to be out of the legal tug of war going on. Everyone thinks the discs have some sort of value. Like anything the value is determined by the market. No market no value. The discs have no value to me, since I was never a SC user. There is so much other product out there that I could do without the hassle of using SC. Since I'm retired from the business, the discs have even less value to me. One thing that does bother me is this idea of a manu holding a product, and giving you a piece of paper saying your purchased material is backed up by discs. This is the same principle of paper money backed up by gold at Fort Knox, which by the way has not been seen or counted in decades. We do know the amount of money in circulation is far greater than our gold reserves.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:57 pm 
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PEP will offer the GEMs again at another 'bargain basement' price. The last offer was a test.
Since they apparently are now losing out in the Courts the lower offer allows them to get more KJs, who think it is bargain, on a contract. That contract WILL hold up in a court.

At least this is what I think. How about you Chip?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:41 am 
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RLC wrote:
Mr Harrington, for someone who claims to have left PEP on December 31st, 2017 you sure are doing a lot of posting on the behalf of PEP.
Were you less than honest in your post of Dec. 31st, 2017?
Are you still actively engaged in PEP day to day business?


As I have made clear, I do not post here, or anywhere, "on behalf of PEP." My comments here are my own. And I'm here primarily to offer insight into various issues, on my own.

I am not actively engaged in PEP's day-to-day business. I still have outstanding cases in which I represent PEP, and I consult for PEP from time to time.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:47 am 
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8) So you are still working for them, and of course as an owner/employee which ever you are, anything posted must be viewed with a large dose of salt. Like any thing you post really makes a difference, at least to me.


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