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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Karaoke Croaker wrote:
Would it have been deleted if it had clearly been a Music Maestro track?
Yep! All YouTube links to any karaoke song is deleted! Period!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:04 am 
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8) After thinking this post over it has come to me that for most practical reasons PEP has already stopped suing seriously. When you think about the cost and time involved for just one suit as Jim has pointed out, and most of these actions are settled out of court. As long as the defendant does not settle it is a pretty safe bet that nothing will go to trial. Just look at the 40 defendants that walked away in California 5 years ago during the APS disaster.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:23 am 
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mrmarog wrote:
I am NOT a supporter of SC/Pep's tactics and particularly the suing of "technical infringers" ...... however, and I've said several times before, who would be watching the henhouse then. If you think we have rampant theft now it would be out of control without their efforts.

My personal efforts to do the right thing is way in the minority of those that could care less about pirating their music. The only thing that keeps even more from entering our world is the threat of legal action..... as unlikely as it might be.... or as little as many have to lose. With another 10 percent of KJs in the mix, our price per gig would not even be worth many of us to leave our home.


The issue in SW Florida, is karaoke is nearly a dead entity. With most of all the karaoke venues gone, and KJ's maybe making a $100 for a 4 hr gig at the VFW or American Legion once/week, who really has 1000's to spend on copyright registration. Moreover, even the parties have dried up with portable machines cropping up, and hard drives available to anyone. The copyright issue would surely chase out all the KJs, who are mostly retired older folk, using portable systems. Even karaoke is nearly gone out of the Florida Keys, where it once was a thriving business mostly due to the law suits cropping up. So in the end if SC/CB or others suing for copyright want to get compliance, sure, they may accomplish their goal, but there may not be anyone left to sue. I'd really like to see if they'd go after the veterans organizations such as the VFW and American Legion, surely would not go over well with the veterans. I use to do a donated karaoke gig once/week for the DVA to get money for disabled vets, but stopped due to the threat of law suits. In conclusion the goal of registration may have unintended consequences of stopping karaoke in certain areas. After all who wants to make $100 for a 4 hr event with 3 hours of hauling and preparation. You'd probably make more as a Walmart greeter.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:31 am 
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Capt Frank, I am retired and live in SW Florida. Karaoke is alive and well for me. Some hosts are only worth 50 bucks a gig, but good hosts will make no less than $200 for a 3 hour gig. I do not do veteran's clubs but a friend of mine does, and he gets paid much better than the rates you stated for a 4 hour show.

As you are probably well aware of, you can safely play all other brands but SC and CB without paying for registration. There are many sources of good karaoke versions of songs without having to play a single SC or CB song.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:34 am 
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Capt Frank wrote:
The issue in SW Florida, is karaoke is nearly a dead entity. With most of all the karaoke venues gone, and KJ's maybe making a $100 for a 4 hr gig at the VFW or American Legion once/week, who really has 1000's to spend on copyright registration. Moreover, even the parties have dried up with portable machines cropping up, and hard drives available to anyone. The copyright issue would surely chase out all the KJs, who are mostly retired older folk, using portable systems. Even karaoke is nearly gone out of the Florida Keys, where it once was a thriving business mostly due to the law suits cropping up. So in the end if SC/CB or others suing for copyright want to get compliance, sure, they may accomplish their goal, but there may not be anyone left to sue.


I'm going to be candid with you here.

First, karaoke is not a "dead entity" in SW Florida. There are dozens of shows per week.

Second, $100 for a four-hour karaoke show is not viable for anyone except the venue. It's bad for KJs, bad for producers, and bad for singers. It is virtually impossible for a professional operator to cover his/her operating expenses and make a reasonable return on investment at that rate. Are there some who make a go of it? Sure, but it's a hardscrabble life and difficult to sustain. (And it's also bad for the venues over the long term.)

Our vision for the karaoke industry is as follows: Professional operators have quality equipment, are able to put on entertaining shows and promote those shows without fear, and pay for the music they use. Karaoke producers are able to make a reasonable profit on the music they make and can afford to produce new music of high quality. Venues are respectful of producers' and publishers' IP rights and pay their operators a fair price for fair services delivered well. Publishers are paid a fair rate for their composition rights--and those rates are consistent on a worldwide basis. Singers have fair opportunities to perform, and patrons are entertained and happy to stay longer at the venues where karaoke is offered.

We're not there yet, but that is what we're working toward.

Capt Frank wrote:
I'd really like to see if they'd go after the veterans organizations such as the VFW and American Legion, surely would not go over well with the veterans.


Generally speaking, we do treat private clubs differently from public venues--and this includes not just veterans' groups, but also the "animal" clubs and other social organizations. Our preferred approach in these instances is to appeal to these groups' integrity. Most of them count integrity as one of their central organizing principles. They would not tolerate a member who was a thief, so when we ask them not show that integrity in their karaoke hiring practices, they usually go along. This is especially true of veterans' groups.

Capt Frank wrote:
I use to do a donated karaoke gig once/week for the DVA to get money for disabled vets, but stopped due to the threat of law suits. In conclusion the goal of registration may have unintended consequences of stopping karaoke in certain areas. After all who wants to make $100 for a 4 hr event with 3 hours of hauling and preparation. You'd probably make more as a Walmart greeter.


And again I'll be candid with you: The end of cheap karaoke is not an "unintended consequence" of what we do. It is very much an intended consequence. As I noted above, cheap karaoke is bad for everybody but the venue.

As far as your "donated gig" goes...I don't have a problem with you donating your services to raise money for disabled veterans. That's a worthy cause, to be sure. Where I have a bit of resentment is in your forcing us to participate in your donation. If you had asked us for permission to use our stuff for that purpose, we would probably have given you a limited-use HELP license at no charge to use in your fundraiser. We're not unreasonable. We're not looking to make a buck at any cost. You just didn't bother to ask us (and I'm assuming you used our stuff; otherwise, you wouldn't have had to worry about lawsuits).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:02 pm 
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you're assuming he did not pay for his music....

"Karaoke producers are able to make a reasonable profit on the music they make and can afford to produce new music of high quality."
i bet Karaok.net, SBI, Karaoke Version, Sunfly will say this is already happening.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
you're assuming he did not pay for his music....

"Karaoke producers are able to make a reasonable profit on the music they make and can afford to produce new music of high quality."
i bet Karaok.net, SBI, Karaoke Version, Sunfly will say this is already happening.


It's a reasonable assumption given he said he had to stop because he was worried about being sued.

The four companies you mentioned are based abroad and can take advantage of foreign licensing for some or all of their sales. I don't agree that any domestic producer is making a reasonable profit from music right now.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:45 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
I don't agree that any domestic producer is making a reasonable profit from music right now.
Considering your firm has never produced a single "new" track despite your constant lies about "contracts on the table" at unmentioned publishers for new music, how could you possibly know?

Karaoke.NET is cranking out as much as they legally can and are upfront and transparent about the publishers and songs they're working with and on. Obviously, your organization doesn't pose any sort of marketing threat to them at all.... On the other hand, you've produced nothing but lawsuits and broken promises that are shrouded in mystery and deceit.

Your "product" is comprised of nothing more than recycled oldies and dumpster-diving for trademarks to fund your declared noninfringing lawsuits against the unknowing.

Once again, the "competitive factor" in karaoke is NOT the library because if the KJ is doing their job, the focus for the patrons is "the fun" and not "the library."


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:56 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:

I'm going to be candid with you here.

First, karaoke is not a "dead entity" in SW Florida. There are dozens of shows per week.

Second, $100 for a four-hour karaoke show is not viable for anyone except the venue. It's bad for KJs, bad for producers, and bad for singers. It is virtually impossible for a professional operator to cover his/her operating expenses and make a reasonable return on investment at that rate. Are there some who make a go of it? Sure, but it's a hardscrabble life and difficult to sustain. (And it's also bad for the venues over the long term.)

Our vision for the karaoke industry is as follows: Professional operators have quality equipment, are able to put on entertaining shows and promote those shows without fear, and pay for the music they use. Karaoke producers are able to make a reasonable profit on the music they make and can afford to produce new music of high quality. Venues are respectful of producers' and publishers' IP rights and pay their operators a fair price for fair services delivered well. Publishers are paid a fair rate for their composition rights--and those rates are consistent on a worldwide basis. Singers have fair opportunities to perform, and patrons are entertained and happy to stay longer at the venues where karaoke is offered.

We're not there yet, but that is what we're working toward.



Generally speaking, we do treat private clubs differently from public venues--and this includes not just veterans' groups, but also the "animal" clubs and other social organizations. Our preferred approach in these instances is to appeal to these groups' integrity. Most of them count integrity as one of their central organizing principles. They would not tolerate a member who was a thief, so when we ask them not show that integrity in their karaoke hiring practices, they usually go along. This is especially true of veterans' groups.


And again I'll be candid with you: The end of cheap karaoke is not an "unintended consequence" of what we do. It is very much an intended consequence. As I noted above, cheap karaoke is bad for everybody but the venue.

As far as your "donated gig" goes...I don't have a problem with you donating your services to raise money for disabled veterans. That's a worthy cause, to be sure. Where I have a bit of resentment is in your forcing us to participate in your donation. If you had asked us for permission to use our stuff for that purpose, we would probably have given you a limited-use HELP license at no charge to use in your fundraiser. We're not unreasonable. We're not looking to make a buck at any cost. You just didn't bother to ask us (and I'm assuming you used our stuff; otherwise, you wouldn't have had to worry about lawsuits).



8) First of all I would have to agree with Jim that karaoke is not dead, but then again it isn't like it was in the good old days. You are wrong about one thing Jim $100.00 to 150.00 is viable if you watch your overhead, are willing to work many hours, already have all the equipment and library, are retired and are only supplementing your retirement income. It is not that hardscrabble a life for I know many hosts that do exactly this. Some get paid in cash buy their food and gas with their earnings, as long as they don't put the money in the bank there is no paper trail. I'm not saying it's right but it's there. Top equipment does not equate to a successful show Jim, the energy and ability of the individual host has a lot to do with the success or failure of hosting. As long as the host stays away from using your product they should have no fear of promoting their shows. In the case of CB they should have even less fear, since I'm not aware of you successfully defending your claim to that label yet.

Come on Jim your real vision of the karaoke industry is for you to be in the driver's seat. To have all hosts paying you for either licensing your GEM series or paying monthly for your HELP license. That the other segment of your business SCE will strong arm all the venues to only carry shows that you have approved so that the venues will be paying you and your selected hosts. I like the way you keep using the word integrity. It is like the word honor, I remember a saying "that the word honor tumbles lightly from the lips of one that has none". A person has to demonstrate integrity themselves before they can demand it from others. We lead by example not phrases.

I'm glad that you are willing to bend a little for worthy causes. I donate my time to veterans also since I am one. I won't be needing your permission to do so, since I don't use your product. Have a nice day. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:15 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
you're assuming he did not pay for his music....

"Karaoke producers are able to make a reasonable profit on the music they make and can afford to produce new music of high quality."
i bet Karaok.net, SBI, Karaoke Version, Sunfly will say this is already happening.


It's a reasonable assumption given he said he had to stop because he was worried about being sued.

incorrect. anybody that paid for all their music can still be sued if they did not ask nicely and pay again.

JimHarrington wrote:
The four companies you mentioned are based abroad and can take advantage of foreign licensing for some or all of their sales. I don't agree that any domestic producer is making a reasonable profit from music right now.

so your claim is that those 4 companies are not paying U.S. licensing fees for the U.S. sales?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:03 pm 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
JimHarrington wrote:
It's a reasonable assumption given he said he had to stop because he was worried about being sued.

incorrect. anybody that paid for all their music can still be sued if they did not ask nicely and pay again.

Exactly. Harrington even coined the term "technical infringers" for them and can't deny that he hasn't made money off suing the same customers that have already paid full retail.

In my opinion, that displays the mentality and integrity one would find in a petty mobster.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:44 pm 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
incorrect. anybody that paid for all their music can still be sued if they did not ask nicely and pay again.


All he had to do was call us up and ask for a free audit. We've never turned down an audit request, even when it was requested to be done at no charge. I'm guessing he couldn't pass an audit, in which case he did the right thing by dropping the brand.

Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
JimHarrington wrote:
The four companies you mentioned are based abroad and can take advantage of foreign licensing for some or all of their sales. I don't agree that any domestic producer is making a reasonable profit from music right now.

so your claim is that those 4 companies are not paying U.S. licensing fees for the U.S. sales?


That's not what I said. All 4 of those companies have significant foreign operations that are conducted with easy licensing. Because they can easily get foreign licensing at favorable rates, they can make enough money on their foreign operations to subsidize the U.S. licensing costs. That's not an option for domestic producers.

I'll point out, by the way, that it's mostly not the royalties that are the obstacle, even though they are higher here. Some publishers do require unreasonably large advances, but that's not the biggest problem. It's the necessity of negotiating individually with hundreds of publishers.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:54 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
incorrect. anybody that paid for all their music can still be sued if they did not ask nicely and pay again.

All he had to do was call us up and ask for a free audit. We've never turned down an audit request, even when it was requested to be done at no charge. I'm guessing he couldn't pass an audit, in which case he did the right thing by dropping the brand.

What a load of B.S.
There is no such thing as a "free audit" because it comes with a contract. "Free" doesn't mean only that no cash changed hands. The terms of the contract are not free. How many audits does he conduct TODAY (not years ago) that have no contract and is "free" of anything? Zero.

Harrington's blatant B.S.ing and outright misdirection and lack of truthfulness is getting to be too much... even for me.

Paradigm is one of the few that sees right through his crap. (I applaud you for that, btw)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:44 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
you're assuming he did not pay for his music....

"Karaoke producers are able to make a reasonable profit on the music they make and can afford to produce new music of high quality."
i bet Karaok.net, SBI, Karaoke Version, Sunfly will say this is already happening.


It's a reasonable assumption given he said he had to stop because he was worried about being sued.

The four companies you mentioned are based abroad and can take advantage of foreign licensing for some or all of their sales. I don't agree that any domestic producer is making a reasonable profit from music right now.

SBI, KV, Sunfly are all abroad - although Sunfly now has a US site - licensing for US kj use to be determined.
karaoke.net is US based with US licensing for both home & pro kj use utilizing Party Tyme, Pocket Songs & Tropical Zone tracks for download, adding more every week (including newer songs).
Party Tyme has always been in the US, is primarily still in the disc only business but just released the info for their pro streaming service, $99 per month, around 11,000 songs, fully licensed for kj use.
http://www.partytymeplayer.com/partytym ... ge_id=2345

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Lonman wrote:
Party Tyme has always been in the US, is primarily still in the disc only business but just released the info for their pro streaming service, $99 per month, around 11,000 songs, fully licensed for kj use.
http://www.partytymeplayer.com/partytym ... ge_id=2345

Jim's contention was that they can get away with it because KSF is in another country using PRSFORMUSIC licensing at a cheaper rate giving them higher profit per track. Then they feed money from those sales into Karaoke.net to pay for the losses in using U.S. licensing. if they did not have the KSF money, they would not be able to justify selling in the U.S.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Not according to Michael, it is through US publishing laws not abroad. Which is why they cannot offer everything they have on their abroad sites.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:18 am 
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i understand, agree, and believe Michael, i was just stating that Jim is saying that without the overseas sales they would not be able to sell in the U.S. and profit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:47 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
you're assuming he did not pay for his music....

"Karaoke producers are able to make a reasonable profit on the music they make and can afford to produce new music of high quality."
i bet Karaok.net, SBI, Karaoke Version, Sunfly will say this is already happening.


It's a reasonable assumption given he said he had to stop because he was worried about being sued.

The four companies you mentioned are based abroad and can take advantage of foreign licensing for some or all of their sales. I don't agree that any domestic producer is making a reasonable profit from music right now.


KSF US which runs karaoke.net is an American company and is completely separate from and receives no support from operations in Europe. I have stated this for the record on more than one occasion. We rely strictly on US licensing and US sales and have enjoyed increases every single month since we launched. We are profitable, we are growing, and our success lies in the strength of our licensing agreements and the diligent work of 5 full-time licensing agents.

Our vision is to provide options which appeal to the different segments of the market. Karaoke.net for KJ's who want to add fully licensed downloads to compliment their library or replace songs that they would rather not use for whatever reason, as well as the home user who has bought a portable player for the kids.

We are in the final stages of integrating our new streaming service featuring HD versions with complete off-line capability into Kjams and PCDJ and hope to add others which will allow a new host or venue the ability to run a show using the latest technology.

Our new dedicated player which both streams and has full offline capability will ship in 2 weeks to the hundreds of bars and restaurants on the waiting list who want a completely legal, easy to use and inexpensive solution to offer karaoke in their venues. http://www.partytyme.pro

TLC - Technology, Licensing, and Content, is a borrowed phrase that perfectly sums up our strategy in this business and we are really just getting started.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:04 am 
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Meanwhile, back at PEP... Image

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:10 am 
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KSFGROUP wrote:
KSF US which runs karaoke.net is an American company and is completely separate from and receives no support from operations in Europe. I have stated this for the record on more than one occasion. We rely strictly on US licensing and US sales and have enjoyed increases every single month since we launched.


First, let me say that I am pleased that you're doing well, and I meant no disrespect in my comments.

However, I would appreciate some clarification on your statement above, that you "receive no support from operations in Europe." I do not question that your US sales are licensed in the US. But are you saying that the European operation does not supply you with any sound recordings? After all, production costs are generally higher than royalty advances for any individual track, and being able to use recordings from the European operation to any extent would be a savings that a purely domestic company would be unable to enjoy. If you don't use the European recordings, then I am happy to withdraw my comment as to your company.


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