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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:21 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:

It's true that we didn't have anything to do with creating the Chartbuster Karaoke brand.


That's a good starting point :) We agree on that.

JimHarrington wrote:
However, after we acquired the brand, we began putting out products under that label. Those products are not focused on the commercial karaoke market per se (they're primarily children's and gospel songs, and they're marketed to schools and churches).


The word for the songs you released is "Public Domain". Aside from your website, I have never seen these for sale anyplace, and when I last looked, found no way to buy these products now. I am sure they didn't sell out, as people can get "Mary Had A Little Lamb" almost anywhere, including Youtube. You would be hard pressed to sue for these, it might cause you more grief then its worth. The only reason why you put out public domain goods is so that you have something to tie you to the label.

Also, lets be honest the odds of you licencing something for Chartbuster line is next to nil. You aren't even producing karaoke under your Sound Choice banner. You mean to tell me your working hard on putting out twice as much stuff that isn't going compete with itself? Sorry, I don't buy it.

JimHarrington wrote:
We do charge Chartbuster commercial users a small one-time fee to register their product with us and obtain a covenant not to sue as well as a listing in our licensee directory. There are several categories for fee waivers and reductions. We charge a fee primarily to recover the cost of collecting and storing the data. It's designed for us to break even, not to make money. The point of the registration program is twofold: (1) To create a database of legitimate owners of CB original media, so that we can avoid these operators when we investigate potential piracy of CB tracks, and (2) to give recognition to those operators who have chosen to not to step into piracy--a difficult choice in the current environment, but one that we want to applaud.


I understand WHY you are charging people the money, and you have done your best to give people something for it. But you are indeed charging them. The fact is you are charging for a brand that most people already paid for. Remember, you can only register original CDs and media. There is no HELP licence for pirated CB product. That means only people who are legit users are paying to continue using the product. So this doesn't affect pirates in any way, just legal KJs who might worried about a lawsuit. The "covenant not to sue" is a little fear mongering on your part. Someone with the original media might not lose the suit depending on if they indeed are keeping 1:1 with the CDs, including multiple rigs.

JimHarrington wrote:
I don't think we've actually sued anyone yet on the CB marks. We have done a few settlement agreements that included a resolution of CB-related potential claims.


Like I said, considering how the people at CB dumped the product, and shifted it to digital for sale make it harder for you (but not impossible) to file a lawsuit. Sound Choice is easy... if it's on computer it's not suppose to be there without PEP consent, you can file a suit. That's why CB most likely would only work for PEPs if the main brand Sound Choice was the primary goal, and in your audit, discover the CB brand as well. Someone playing only Chartbuster branded goods at a show is not a guaranteed win for PEP.

And I agree that while pirates will steal everything. As long as they aren't using SC (which btw is fine with you guys) they may avoid a lawsuit simply because it might not be fruitful on your end to sue them. It cost thousands for a lawsuit that needs to be recovered on top of the punitive damages. You could take a shot, but if they pull out the hard drive it's thousands of dollars and hours of work wasted.

JimHarrington wrote:
I have always viewed the term "trolling" as being sort of a loaded term. I see it used frequently by people who are simply upset at being sued for infringement. There is more to trolling than that.

Trolling, whether it's patent, trademark, or copyright, is the filing of lawsuits by entities that own but do not use the intellectual property in question, usually based on specious connections between the IP rights and the activity the entity is suing over, primarily to obtain a "cost-of-defense" settlement.

Early in my career, I had a client that was one of perhaps a thousand companies that were sued based on an early patent for certain computer technology that could be read to cover all e-commerce over the internet. The patent itself provided little useful information about how to implement e-commerce, but because it was issued at a time when the commercial internet was still in its infancy, the patentee was able to get some very broad claims. The patentee then threatened to sue (or actually sued) hundreds of companies but offered licenses for amounts that were far less than the cost of defending a lawsuit--say, $50,000 or $75,000 at a time, when just getting through discovery in a patent case might cost $1 million.


Which is almost exactly what PEP is doing. PEP the patentee threatens to sue if they catch someone using PEP product. The cost of the lawsuit far outweighs whatever your other options are, depending on what you do or don't own. You aren't wrong to do this with Sound Choice Products.

As for Chartbuster, it's a totally different animal. PEP bought the trademark rights to a dead company they considered the #1 competitor in the karaoke business so it does not fall into freeware status. It's right on your website. The only reason for PEP to buy the rights is because PEP can't complete with Chartbuster as freeware. Even now, you can buy the 2700 CAVS songs for much less then the GEM series. Doing this keeps CB from falling into freeware, and you staying competitive with your initial product.


JimHarrington wrote:
Probably the biggest factor in whether someone is a troll or not is whether they have actually developed the technology, the idea, or the brand and/or used that IP to create value through commercial activities, versus an entity that scoops up IP with the goal of making money by conducting arbitrage on the cost of litigation. Nobody likes getting sued, but not every entity that asserts IP is a troll--far from it.


With SC, this is an 100% acceptable answer, you have indeed put in the sweat equity behind the brand. With CB, while you have the brand, the rest isn't yours, you just bought the trademark. But you did buy the IP, and you are trying to make money. I am sure if every professional KJ registered their product, their would be a profit. We both know that isn't going to happen of course, but if that doesn't work, you can fall back on lawsuits. While you might have a better case with SC, suing over just CB... especially if you lose a few, might hurt more then help.

Again, I have zero beef with PEP going after pirates who use SC products. But the CB trademark makes a hard case for many of us about your intents on how you plan to use it. Like you said, "Nobody likes getting sued"Time will tell what happens here.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:25 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
8) Wrong Chris they have no legal standing to protect CB material that was produced and sold under the CAVS SCDG Trademark. The reason they have not gone after the pirates using CB is because unlike SC they simply do not have a clear title. As difficult as it is to collect on SC it is even harder to collect for CB, if that wasn't the case why did PEP drop all of the old PR suits?


There is so much wrong with this it's hard to know where to start.

If a product bears our trademark, we have the legal standing to protect it even if other marks appear on that product.

Our title to the CB trademark is 100% clear. You can look in the records of the US Patent & Trademark Office, which are definitive as to ownership.

We have not yet filed any suits over the CB marks because we are working in other ways to enforce those marks and because we have been building our database of legit users before we begin filing suits.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you ask "why did PEP drop all of the old PR suits?" We are not Piracy Recovery. We were not a party to any of those suits except one, and we didn't drop that one--we took it to a jury verdict and won.


8) You have zero Jim until the court upholds your claim. The 9th district Federal Court has not been upholding your claims the only victories you have had is where the host has been foolish enough to pay your ransom money., and settle.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Kuelman1 wrote:
What the hell do any of these replies have to do with Microsoft?
If you want to start a trademark post go do it.



Can we get a Moderator in here to change the title of this topic thread? How about "Let's talk more about PEP again (and again and again and again...)."


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:32 pm 
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cueball wrote:
Kuelman1 wrote:
What the hell do any of these replies have to do with Microsoft?
If you want to start a trademark post go do it.



Can we get a Moderator in here to change the title of this topic thread? How about "Let's talk more about PEP again (and again and again and again...)."


As if you didn't know this thread would get corrupted......

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:53 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
c. staley wrote:
And PEP purchased the "Chartbuster Karaoke" trademark for the sole purpose of suing KJ's and venues for infringement.

Inaccurate. (If that was our "sole" purpose, why haven't we filed any suits yet? It's been 15 months since the sale was concluded.)
Because you have no sales records and the product was distributed in a digital format through SD cards and undocumented hard drive sales of which you've confirmed you have none. It is not that same situation where SC tracks were sold only on disc (with the exception of their "doPi" product). Tell me how an investigator, seeing boatloads of CB tracks being played off a computer is going to build a piracy case on that... There are LOTS of KJ's that purchased the hard drives during their final "fire sale" before they vanished.
JimHarrington wrote:
c. staley wrote:
It was transferred to them on the last day of the grace period after expiring, so I hope it cost a chunk.

Also inaccurate, and easily verified as such.
Perhaps I should have specified it as being the filing of the "Statement of Use" declaration but either way, and whether you choose to believe it or not, I did confirm it directly with the Trademark Office last year after you submitted a photo of an Irish disc marked "(c) 2006 Tennessee Production Center" as your product.
So call her yourself if you like:
[Debra Ahmed, OFFICE OF POST REGISTRATION, (571) 272-9122 ]

Yeah, I never do my homework.... or document anything....

JimHarrington wrote:
c. staley wrote:
I really have my doubts (despite his claims) that they actually sell any product... even to schools and churches...

It really doesn't matter to me whether you believe or doubt. After all, you believe many things that are not true, and you doubt many things that are true, so your belief, or lack of it, is not an indicator of anything other than how much of a %^&* you are on any given day.

Which really means you don't sell squat. Gotcha...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:28 pm 
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And there's the poop....

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:00 pm 
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chrisavis wrote:
And there's the poop....

However, he has not only verified his statements, but given the name and contact information of who he did it through for anyone else to double check.
it's only poop if it's just pulling something out of his butt, not if it's verified and factual.
this time he backed it up.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:42 pm 
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He didn't back anything up. He posted the name and number of the post-registration examiner who processed the section 8 affidavit. If he called her, that was exceptionally stupid, because the information she had available online. The registrations, of which there were three, were assigned in November 2015. Two of them won't expire until 2019. The other one did require a section 8, which we filed within the allotted time, but they weren't "transferred on the last day of the grace period." That was a lie.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:05 pm 
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chrisavis wrote:
And there's the poop....


chrisavis wrote:
As if you didn't know this thread would get corrupted......





I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:13 pm 
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cueball wrote:
I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


C'mon Cue... You know he posted this topic because he knew what would happen to it. Microsoft info? On a Karaoke board? It didn't last 5 seconds.

I was fine with letting it go until he started defending PEP, but conveniently forgot that PEP bought CB to do the trademark troll thing.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:36 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
He didn't back anything up. He posted the name and number of the post-registration examiner who processed the section 8 affidavit. If he called her, that was exceptionally stupid, because the information she had available online. The registrations, of which there were three, were assigned in November 2015. Two of them won't expire until 2019. The other one did require a section 8, which we filed within the allotted time, but they weren't "transferred on the last day of the grace period." That was a lie.
Here is the correction you're obviously looking for (after reviewing my notes):

No, the trademark was not "transferred" on the last day of the grace period. The section 8 was received on the last day of the grace period. Because we know that "within the allotted time" includes up to that day.

Happy now?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:03 am 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
C'mon Cue... You know he posted this topic because he knew what would happen to it. Microsoft info? On a Karaoke board? It didn't last 5 seconds.

I am in full agreement with you on that point. The fact that Chris even made this comment...
chrisavis wrote:

As if you didn't know this thread would get corrupted......
actually reinforces that notion, because I truly believe he knew this would happen before it even started. Now, as to whether or not that was Chris's intention is a totally different argument.

So... back to my original post.... Since this topic thread has had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Microsoft (except for the OP)...
cueball wrote:
Can we get a Moderator in here to change the title of this topic thread? How about "Let's talk more about PEP again (and again and again and again...)."
If not, maybe it's time for JD to step in and just lock this thread.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:06 am 
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or maybe the people here don't need a "Hall Monitor" to alert the police for every little thing????How about that?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:33 am 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
And there's the poop....

However, he has not only verified his statements, but given the name and contact information of who he did it through for anyone else to double check.
it's only poop if it's just pulling something out of his butt, not if it's verified and factual.
this time he backed it up.


My proof that Chip lied about digital watermarking wasn't pulled out of my butt either. It is 100% irrefutable. But, people seem willing to overlook that bold-faced lie because Chip is the champion of the Anti-SC movement and he aligns with their position.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:43 am 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
cueball wrote:
I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


C'mon Cue... You know he posted this topic because he knew what would happen to it. Microsoft info? On a Karaoke board? It didn't last 5 seconds.

I was fine with letting it go until he started defending PEP, but conveniently forgot that PEP bought CB to do the trademark troll thing.


Toastedmuffin wrote:
cueball wrote:
I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


C'mon Cue... You know he posted this topic because he knew what would happen to it. Microsoft info? On a Karaoke board? It didn't last 5 seconds.

I was fine with letting it go until he started defending PEP, but conveniently forgot that PEP bought CB to do the trademark troll thing.


If you have been paying attention at all, you would know why I post Microsoft information to this forum.

What I expected was for jdmeister to make some some sort of snarky comment and perhaps Chip to make one as well. I generally ignore those, but jd's comment was intentionally designed to turn this into yet another Anti-SC thread. He accomplished his goal. How's that for some impartial moderation?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:47 am 
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cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
And there's the poop....


chrisavis wrote:
As if you didn't know this thread would get corrupted......





I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


It's hard to keep a thread in check when a moderator intentionally derails it. I did call him out on it.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:24 am 
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chrisavis wrote:
Toastedmuffin wrote:
cueball wrote:
I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


C'mon Cue... You know he posted this topic because he knew what would happen to it. Microsoft info? On a Karaoke board? It didn't last 5 seconds.

I was fine with letting it go until he started defending PEP, but conveniently forgot that PEP bought CB to do the trademark troll thing.


Toastedmuffin wrote:
cueball wrote:
I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


C'mon Cue... You know he posted this topic because he knew what would happen to it. Microsoft info? On a Karaoke board? It didn't last 5 seconds.

I was fine with letting it go until he started defending PEP, but conveniently forgot that PEP bought CB to do the trademark troll thing.


If you have been paying attention at all, you would know why I post Microsoft information to this forum.

What I expected was for jdmeister to make some some sort of snarky comment and perhaps Chip to make one as well. I generally ignore those, but jd's comment was intentionally designed to turn this into yet another Anti-SC thread. He accomplished his goal. How's that for some impartial moderation?


OK, let me bite on this....

What does Microsoft defending customers from patent trolls have to do with a karaoke board, other then for it to be troll bait?

Some of us, don't have a long history here, are minor contributors, or don't read the boards everyday like gospel. For the sake of THOSE people, you might have to clarify WHY your posting Microsoft Information on a Karaoke forum.

For the record here is your original post:

ChrisDavis wrote:
"Microsoft’s customer agreements already included a pledge from the Redmond company to defend users of its Azure cloud-computing platform in cases in which third parties claim that the use of Microsoft’s software infringed on their patents. "

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/mi ... nt-trolls/


Aside from lifting the text in the article... what was your thoughts about it? How does this article relate to a karaoke forum? You post a random article and add nothing to make it a conversation. Not everyone here has a background in computers, and we certainly can't read your mind to say "Oh... he means THIS". Sometimes you need a bit more to start a good conversation.

Does it relate to streaming from subscription services? Does it make it easier to use a cloud service so I can stream my files to my gigs? What was YOUR take on the article?

We got nothing from you, just a link.

Seriously, you posted a link to a bunch of KJs who 90% of them might never use such a thing other then to store photos and music. Then put words like "Patent Troll" in the topic title. What would you expect to happen? A long conversation about cloud computing?

Plenty of conversations don't turn into anti PEP threads, you left this one to dangle and it became troll meat. Simple as that.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
Toastedmuffin wrote:
cueball wrote:
I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


C'mon Cue... You know he posted this topic because he knew what would happen to it. Microsoft info? On a Karaoke board? It didn't last 5 seconds.

I was fine with letting it go until he started defending PEP, but conveniently forgot that PEP bought CB to do the trademark troll thing.


Toastedmuffin wrote:
cueball wrote:
I didn't start this topic thread. I didn't start the derailment of it. As the OP, YOU let it get derailed, and didn't do one single thing to attempt to set it right.

Take responsibility for your own rather than deflecting it!!!


C'mon Cue... You know he posted this topic because he knew what would happen to it. Microsoft info? On a Karaoke board? It didn't last 5 seconds.

I was fine with letting it go until he started defending PEP, but conveniently forgot that PEP bought CB to do the trademark troll thing.


If you have been paying attention at all, you would know why I post Microsoft information to this forum.

What I expected was for jdmeister to make some some sort of snarky comment and perhaps Chip to make one as well. I generally ignore those, but jd's comment was intentionally designed to turn this into yet another Anti-SC thread. He accomplished his goal. How's that for some impartial moderation?


OK, let me bite on this....

What does Microsoft defending customers from patent trolls have to do with a karaoke board, other then for it to be troll bait?

Some of us, don't have a long history here, are minor contributors, or don't read the boards everyday like gospel. For the sake of THOSE people, you might have to clarify WHY your posting Microsoft Information on a Karaoke forum.

For the record here is your original post:

ChrisDavis wrote:
"Microsoft’s customer agreements already included a pledge from the Redmond company to defend users of its Azure cloud-computing platform in cases in which third parties claim that the use of Microsoft’s software infringed on their patents. "

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/mi ... nt-trolls/


Aside from lifting the text in the article... what was your thoughts about it? How does this article relate to a karaoke forum? You post a random article and add nothing to make it a conversation. Not everyone here has a background in computers, and we certainly can't read your mind to say "Oh... he means THIS". Sometimes you need a bit more to start a good conversation.

Does it relate to streaming from subscription services? Does it make it easier to use a cloud service so I can stream my files to my gigs? What was YOUR take on the article?

We got nothing from you, just a link.

Seriously, you posted a link to a bunch of KJs who 90% of them might never use such a thing other then to store photos and music. Then put words like "Patent Troll" in the topic title. What would you expect to happen? A long conversation about cloud computing?

Plenty of conversations don't turn into anti PEP threads, you left this one to dangle and it became troll meat. Simple as that.



I have worked for Microsoft in some capacity for 20+ years. When I came to this forum, I offered to assist with tech issues. I also have posted the occasional MS related article.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:27 pm 
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chrisavis wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
And there's the poop....

However, he has not only verified his statements, but given the name and contact information of who he did it through for anyone else to double check.
it's only poop if it's just pulling something out of his butt, not if it's verified and factual.
this time he backed it up.


My proof that Chip lied about digital watermarking wasn't pulled out of my butt either. It is 100% irrefutable. But, people seem willing to overlook that bold-faced lie because Chip is the champion of the Anti-SC movement and he aligns with their position.

i have never disputed your claim on the digital watermark, how do i check that for myself though? For his statement, i can check it by calling the same person who's name and phone number he posted and ask myself.

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Who really cares about a water mark on a bunch of Red Peters songs? I have never heard one of them sung at karaoke. Do you think that karaoke pirates would give a rat's (@$%&#!) about a water mark on a karaoke track? The Sound Choice Logo is all over their tracks and pirates use them every day at every show with no fear of being sued any longer. Who would they be afraid of when it comes to a couple dozen novelty songs? I've looked for Red Peters karaoke many times out of curiosity and they are no where to be found. It seems like supply and demand has taken control of that situation. There is very little demand for them so there is a very limited number of places that care to supply them. I think most people go to karaoke to sing their favorite songs that they hear on the radio. I'm sure that there are some Red Peters fanatics out there but after listening to some of his songs on you tube; I think that singing those songs at your average karaoke bar would get a pretty cool reception from the average crowd. The idea of singing songs that will make the crowd uncomfortable is appealing to some people but the average KJ probably wouldn't purchase these kinds of songs or put them in his song book even if he had them. I'm also sure that there are probably a small number of KJs out there who think that these types of songs are the best thing since sliced bread and they will swear that they get sung at their show all of the time. They always say things like: It's being sung in a bar for adults and adults should be able to handle songs that are sexually explicit. I get it. There are bars where that kind of music is encouraged and enjoyed by the crowd. There is a time and place for everything. If your favorite karaoke joint is one of those places; enjoy yourself and sing Red Peter's track to your hearts content.


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