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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:12 am 
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chrisavis wrote:
There are at least 60 bars in the greater Seattle area that have nothing worry about based upon what I know about the folks in the PEP directory and the shows they run.

Instead of sitting back preaching gloom and doom and practically hoping for the demise of the industry, one could, for a relatively small investment, protect not just yourself and your venue, but also add some herd immunity to karaoke overall.

Oops....did I just think outside of the box?


It's not Doom and Gloom at all. Maybe I care about tactics that makes venues afraid of hosting karaoke. Or that those same venues would have to pay twice to use ONE product in order to have a KJ there (They got to pay us too, right?)

A cheaper solution might be to drop PEPs lines and make sure you tell your venues why. After all, if you don't play PEPs products, you won't get sued (Jim's words, not mine). Your venues might actually be happy to know they are being looked after, and that you are trying to save them from a shakedown fee or lawsuit.

I've survived the "Loss" of Sound Choice product for 6+ years, and will continue to do so if need be. Like I've said, there are lots of options out there we didn't have years ago. IF they become relevant again and actually turn out some product I need, I might buy from them: It's business. So long as my venues and I don't have to sign any contacts that limits me or costs me more to play their music after buying it. Until PEP puts out karaoke, I can't make that decision.

Plenty of us on this board feel PEP has indeed "poisoned the well", but it's not to say they can't fix that... if they want to. If they want to make money from KJs they do need to repair the damage done.

But taking it out on where we play is a bad idea. Seattle has lots of places, most of rural America might have 1 or 2 places, that's a big difference. If they sue a spot in Seattle, no big deal, patrons can go to the next spot maybe a few blocks away. Sue in a rural area, and your looking at no karaoke for an entire town.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:19 am 
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cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
c.staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
I smell poop again.....

Check your upper lip....
You've had your head up Harrington's rear end so much, there has to be some residue.
Learn to wipe better.


Oh....the wit. It's a lot less funny when you have to explain it. Ask any comedian.


Gee whiz!!!! I thought it was very funny.


Some people need the explanation to get it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:29 am 
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c. staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
c. staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
I smell poop again.....
Check your upper lip....
You've had your head up Harrington's rear end so much, there has to be some residue.
Learn to wipe better.

Oh....the wit. It's a lot less funny when you have to explain it. Ask any comedian.
I knew it would be far too complex for you to understand without explanation but everyone else got it.
chrisavis wrote:
c. staley wrote:
Newsflash: I can use "sc material" whenever and wherever I ef'ing want and even your buddies at pep-tone can't stop me if they wanted to. But if you think that is somehow not true, then please explain to all your loyal fans how they can stop me...

control - the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events

You pulled SC out of fear of being sued. Seems to me that Kurt's thumbprint is practically a tattoo on your forehead at this point.
All deflection. I asked you to tell me how they can stop me and you simply barfed up drivel. How do you know I'm not using it now that both districts 7 and 9 have declared their lawsuits are not infringement?

And to think you spent so much money on contracts out of fear of being sued for trademark infringement for your precious "covenant not to sue" ..... when the courts have determined that it hasn't been infringement all along and you're still locked into (and controlled by) the contracts you paid to sign.... Feel snookered yet?

chrisavis wrote:
c. staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
So.....Who is being controlled?
You are. Check your contracts with them.


I feel comfortable saying that you have likely signed a few contracts in your time and been subject to "control" yourself. In fact, you are a number of years older than me and reason would suggest you have signed more contracts than me and are thus under the control of far more people for far more activities than me. But I don't hold it against you. Just pointing it out.
And now you're just guessing and making up lies to cover your own flailing about because you don't know me at all. I've never signed - and would never sign - any contract with a (former) vendor with such overreaching crap in it. I'm not that stupid.... errr, I mean; "easily fooled."

The ONLY thing all your contracts with pep does is prevent you from being sued for trademark infringement (which according to the courts, was NEVER infringement to start with) and in the meantime, they get to tell you what bitrate to use, can "inspect" your equipment, accounting books and decide if your "service" is up to their expectations whenever they want, you must report to them if your library changes by 2% and they can cancel your lease(s) if you talk bad about them...

So yeah, you are "controlled" and you have exactly nothing in exchange for this control but the stubs from the checks of yours they've cashed.
How about now? Feel stupid now? Toilet paper has more use than your precious "covenant" because at least it's softer and flushable.
chrisavis wrote:
The difference for our example is that you cannot use SC material without some serious repercussions. While contrary to your claims, I can say "PEP Sucks" any time I like (see....I just did). Of course most people know I don't actually feel that way, but you seem to believe that some words on a piece of paper preclude me from even thinking it, much less typing it up on a forum, be it how I really feel or not. Now that I have, what will you adopt as your next modus operandi in attacking me?

I highlighted your disclaimer in the above quote in case Harrington were to miss it and want to yank a license or two... So, you can say what you want about pep... as long as you have an implied disclaimer like this right? So who is under their control? That's right, you are.

I can say "Pep sucks" and really mean it AND CAN play sc material all I want... You can't. So it's looking to me like Harrington's buttprint is all over your forehead.
chrisavis wrote:
(note - I plan on remaining infantile with poop, yeti's and calling out your lies).
Fixed that for you.

chrisavis wrote:
Again.....I know it pains you to see me doing what you no longer can, and I should add, with superior efficiency, and I suspect much higher margins. But there is no reason to dislike me so for that. I would be happy to share with you how one can optimize their multi-rig oper.......oh.....wait......sorry......you can't do that any longer. My bad.
It doesn't pain me a bit because you keep repeating that I "can't" when you know full well that I choose not to. And I doubt your "efficiency" is all that hot. How many laptops of yours have been stolen so far? Two? Maybe more? I've never had a piece of equipment stolen from a venue.... but I try not to work in seedy places where that would happen anyway.
chrisavis wrote:
So blinded by rage that you can't see the forest for the trees. I sincerely feel sorry for you these days.
You shouldn't fee sorry for me, I'm not controlled by or locked into any expensive contracts for the Brooklyn Bridge.... I'm the one feeling sorry for you that you've been so hoodwinked and feel so embarrassed about it that you have to defend your decision just to feel better about it...
chrisavis wrote:
There are obvious ways that KJ's can accomplish what I suggested without signing any contract at all. Like just use the discs to run a show.
So NOW you admit that I've always been able to use the material? Took you long enough and now you're starting to "think outside of pep's box."

chrisavis wrote:
Of course you will also suggest that no contract is needed to pull the discs, shove them in your garage, and lose your investment. But that is just one of the stupid things you have chosen to do that I would like to see other people avoid.
I haven't lost my investment at all. I still own them and I can use them - you said so yourself. I would have lost the investment if I had sold them to you at your magnanimous offer of $2 each and $10 for the new Eagles discs...

I guess I was pretty smart to hang on to them all this time... I have them and I can use them... and it looks like I can use them on a computer too... so I really haven't lost anything have I?

chrisavis wrote:
btw...... Don't think people didn't notice how you completely ignored and even snipped out the watermarking comment. Have I mentioned I work with the digital forensics team at Microsoft in my new role? More to come....... :)
Oh, I'm just giddy with anticipation... said no one ever.

chrisavis wrote:
Finally........stop caring Chip. You said you don't, but you keep responding. So you are either lying about caring, or you simply can't control yourself.
I really don't care, but I find it necessary to correct your lies and bull**** just like I do with your pals...

I do care about the unknowing venues that are being threatened by your buddies -- like the ones in Garland, TX because they don't know they are being trolled by predators with no decent source of income.



You didn't prove me wrong on any count. You didn't prove yourself right on any count. Just the same old word vomit.

Have a great day, Chip!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:53 am 
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If a host has created and displayed posters that say that they will not play a certain manufacturer's product under any circumstances, how can they suddenly change their mind and reverse course?

It would seem one has painted themselves into a corner on that one.

Nope, can't play them. This is a direct result of one's own actions.

To do so would be a blatant compromise of that host's integrity.

Don't undermine the foundation upon which you stand.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:15 pm 
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MtnKaraoke wrote:
If a host has created and displayed posters that say that they will not play a certain manufacturer's product under any circumstances, how can they suddenly change their mind and reverse course?

It would seem one has painted themselves into a corner on that one.

Nope, can't play them. This is a direct result of one's own actions.

To do so would be a blatant compromise of that host's integrity.

Don't undermine the foundation upon which you stand.



The sign was a response to being controlled into pulling the product in the first place. Lashing out is a common defensive tactic used by the guilty and the offended to try to save face. It's just a means of making one's self look like the victim for sympathy, or to look like the protagonist and project the illusion of being smarter than or ahead of the curve on something.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:19 pm 
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cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
c.staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
I smell poop again.....

Check your upper lip....
You've had your head up Harrington's rear end so much, there has to be some residue.
Learn to wipe better.


Oh....the wit. It's a lot less funny when you have to explain it. Ask any comedian.


Gee whiz!!!! I thought it was very funny.


c. staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
Some people need the explanation to get it.

I knew it would be far too complex for you to understand without explanation but everyone else got it.


In that case, it seems it was a very good thing you had Chip here to explain it for you.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:18 pm 
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cueball wrote:
cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
c.staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
I smell poop again.....

Check your upper lip....
You've had your head up Harrington's rear end so much, there has to be some residue.
Learn to wipe better.


Oh....the wit. It's a lot less funny when you have to explain it. Ask any comedian.


Gee whiz!!!! I thought it was very funny.


c. staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
Some people need the explanation to get it.

I knew it would be far too complex for you to understand without explanation but everyone else got it.


In that case, it seems it was a very good thing you had Chip here to explain it for you.


Oh Cue....

All we have to do is search for your name to see who needs easy to understand concepts explained to them. One question though.......will the explanation need to be typed in over size, colored text for you to comprehend? Or will emojis be sufficient?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:18 pm 
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c. staley wrote:
I highlighted your disclaimer in the above quote in case Harrington were to miss it and want to yank a license or two... So, you can say what you want about pep... as long as you have an implied disclaimer like this right? So who is under their control? That's right, you are.


Continuing to repeat the lie will not make it any more true.

Any of our licensees is free to criticize us all they want without fear that we will "yank a license." We don't operate that way. Any licensee is free to call me at 214-396-7288 or email me at jim@phxep.com to offer their concerns without fear of retribution. After all, we are always looking for ways to improve, and we can't improve if we don't listen to complaints. But aside from that, our licensees are also free to make whatever public comments they deem appropriate. We will not ever pull a license because someone criticized us publicly--or privately, for that matter.

The clause you're speaking of is a standard morals clause. If, for example, one of our licensees sold cocaine at his karaoke show, we could cancel the license, because we don't want to be associated with that. Criticizing us does not "bring us into disrepute." It's one person's opinion. If you engage in acts that we don't want to be associated with, however, yes, we can cancel your license.

c. staley wrote:
I can say "Pep sucks" and really mean it AND CAN play sc material all I want... You can't.


Chris can do both of those things. If he really means it, I hope he'll share that with me, but he's not in danger of losing his license in any event.

On the other hand, you really CAN'T play SC material all you want. I mean, you're welcome to play any discs you own, all you want. But you can't play those discs, because doing so would be an admission that you really can't do your show without our material. You've staked out a position (remember that sign?), and you have too much pride to retreat from it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:31 pm 
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8) No host that wants has to retreat from the position of not playing SC Jim, as far as CB is concerned there are at least 2700 of them I can play since they are protected under the SCDG CAVS trademark, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. If pride means not having to bow to you and Kurt, then pride is a good thing to have.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:15 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
8) No host that wants has to retreat from the position of not playing SC Jim, as far as CB is concerned there are at least 2700 of them I can play since they are protected under the SCDG CAVS trademark, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. If pride means not having to bow to you and Kurt, then pride is a good thing to have.


As usual, you miss the point. I'm not criticizing Mr. Staley for having pride. I'm merely pointing out that playing SC now would require him to forfeit it. He has spent the last 7 years arguing that no one needs SC to run a show, so if he plays it now, he'll be eating his words.

I will admit that I've never asked the question, but I would be very surprised if any of our licensees view the relationship as "having to bow to me and Kurt." That's something that certain people with ulterior motives--not licensees--made up.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:08 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
The clause you're speaking of is a standard morals clause. If, for example, one of our licensees sold cocaine at his karaoke show, we could cancel the license, because we don't want to be associated with that. Criticizing us does not "bring us into disrepute." It's one person's opinion. If you engage in acts that we don't want to be associated with, however, yes, we can cancel your license.

"Words mean things" remember? Your words counselor, not mine. You don't seem to have a problem changing the meaning of the words you write but you'd be the first to clarify the written word as it is if it suits your agenda or can make you a buck.

And based on you most current definition of your "morals clause," you can cancel the license of any host for a DWI... or a speeding ticket etc...
JimHarrington wrote:
c. staley wrote:
I can say "Pep sucks" and really mean it AND CAN play sc material all I want... You can't.

Chris can do both of those things. If he really means it, I hope he'll share that with me, but he's not in danger of losing his license in any event.

On the other hand, you really CAN'T play SC material all you want. I mean, you're welcome to play any discs you own, all you want. But you can't play those discs, because doing so would be an admission that you really can't do your show without our material. You've staked out a position (remember that sign?), and you have too much pride to retreat from it.
Oh, the 7th and 9th federal districts don't seem to agree with you on that one... It appears as though whether I play off discs, a laptop, a desktop or even a home server, it's still not trademark infringement.... and that's a couple of important milestones:

#1. "Media shifting" as you have decided to define it, is dead in the water.
Poof! Gone. Shifting is not (repeat: "not") infringement. Period.

#2. Your definition of trademark infringement as it has pertained to your lawsuits is invalid. It's not infringement with or without a disc. And so it's also dead in the water.

#3. Your lawsuit in Illinois for trade dress (because your logo was removed) was also tossed out on the street by the court.... Strike three.

#4. You suggestion that removal of the logo is technologically easy, cheap and quick will also remove any "confusion" about your precious service mark as well. You'll be happy to know that I have verified that you are 100% correct and it is readily available for just $69 right here: https://www.cavsusa.com/graphicseditor.php
(By the way, CAVS probably developed this software with some of the over $350,000 that Kurt had to pay them for calling their machines "illegal"... just sayin')

#5. Your H.E.L.P. License is unequivocally worthless.

Since display of your logo is not infringement and removal of the logo also removes any service mark confusion, the $400+ per month license is nothing more that a stinkin' pile of --- as Chris puts it -- poop.

But more importantly, I haven't used/needed your brand for over 6 years, why would I need it now? But it doesn't matter, I can use it if I want, in any form I want no matter how much you whine about it according to the feds... I might just put up a sign that says; "Let the joyous news be spread, the big, bad witch at last is dead."

Still bulletproof and it hasn't cost me a dime....


Last edited by c. staley on Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:34 pm 
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MtnKaraoke wrote:
If a host has created and displayed posters that say that they will not play a certain manufacturer's product under any circumstances, how can they suddenly change their mind and reverse course?
First you will need to read the sign again. It clearly says that "we will not risk being sued just for a logo appearing on a monitor" See: 7th and 9th district decisions Because it looks like the logo doesn't matter anymore.

MtnKaraoke wrote:
It would seem one has painted themselves into a corner on that one.

Nope, can't play them. This is a direct result of one's own actions.

To do so would be a blatant compromise of that host's integrity.

Don't undermine the foundation upon which you stand.

Wrong. I can play them. Both venues and customers have always been aware the "bad guys" here are the owners of the logo. Keeping my library on ice has preserved my ability to play them..... now since the decisions, in any format...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:39 pm 
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There are quite a few brands out there now on the web that have removed the SC Logo from their karaoke tracks and replaced it with a new brand name. ROCK BAND KARAOKE is just one of them that I have seen. If Chip really wanted to play a particular track he could easily find the ROCK BAND KARAOKE version of the song or some other bogus brand name for that matter.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:43 pm 
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c. staley wrote:
MtnKaraoke wrote:
If a host has created and displayed posters that say that they will not play a certain manufacturer's product under any circumstances, how can they suddenly change their mind and reverse course?
First you will need to read the sign again. It clearly says that "we will not risk being sued just for a logo appearing on a monitor" See: 7th and 9th district decisions Because it looks like the logo doesn't matter anymore.

MtnKaraoke wrote:
It would seem one has painted themselves into a corner on that one.

Nope, can't play them. This is a direct result of one's own actions.

To do so would be a blatant compromise of that host's integrity.

Don't undermine the foundation upon which you stand.

Wrong. I can play them. Both venues and customers have always been aware the "bad guys" here are the owners of the logo. Keeping my library on ice has preserved my ability to play them..... now since the decisions, in any format...


It might not be an issue in the 7th & 9th Districts, but there are 9 others where the jury is not out so to speak.

That being said, If you've stuck to your guns for the last 6+, don't see why you need to play the CDs now, in any form, unless you want them to try to find a way to sue you again. Or at least give them the bragging rights that you are using SC again.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Mr. Staley, you do realize that Michigan is in the Sixth Circuit, right? And that courts in the Sixth Circuit have upheld our claims, along with courts in the Second, Fourth, Fifth, Eighth, and Eleventh Circuits?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
It might not be an issue in the 7th & 9th Districts, but there are 9 others where the jury is not out so to speak.
That's true... but as you can see, districts usually follow districts.... and like dominoes I'll wager they'll keep toppling.

Toastedmuffin wrote:
That being said, If you've stuck to your guns for the last 6+, don't see why you need to play the CDs now, in any form, unless you want them to try to find a way to sue you again. Or at least give them the bragging rights that you are using SC again.
I'm sure if they could have found a reason in the last 6 years, they would have by now. The bragging rights won't be theirs.... So far, I've had 6 years of bragging rights that the label is not necessary to stay in business. (that fact alone, really ticks Harrington off.)

Harrington has accused me of assisting defendants, instigating the EMI suit against them and generally spanking them unjustly at every turn when in fact, all I've ever done is state the facts about their actions.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:26 pm 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Mr. Staley, you do realize that Michigan is in the Sixth Circuit, right? And that courts in the Sixth Circuit have upheld our claims, along with courts in the Second, Fourth, Fifth, Eighth, and Eleventh Circuits?
This doesn't invoke any fear if that's what you're trying to do but, if as you claim the "courts upheld your claims" then let's see the orders where they've actually upheld your claims based on the law (not defaults or settlements, but actual orders).

You've named 6 courts above, let's see at least 6 orders/opinions -- one from each court you've named.

Your boast, you prove it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:36 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:

As usual, you miss the point. I'm not criticizing Mr. Staley for having pride. I'm merely pointing out that playing SC now would require him to forfeit it. He has spent the last 7 years arguing that no one needs SC to run a show, so if he plays it now, he'll be eating his words.

I will admit that I've never asked the question, but I would be very surprised if any of our licensees view the relationship as "having to bow to me and Kurt." That's something that certain people with ulterior motives--not licensees--made up.


8) The point is power and money isn't Jim? The power to impose PEP's demands and obtain money in the form of damages, tribute, loot whatever you want to call it. This country has always stood on the principle of millions for defense not one penny of tribute, I think that would be a good policy for hosts as well. To defend against you simply stop using your product that would be an adequate defense, without having to pay you.

It would do no good to ask your yes men how they feel, they would only support and tell you what you want to hear. Certain people might make things up just like a certain lawyer does.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:18 am 
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c. staley wrote:
You've named 6 courts above, let's see at least 6 orders/opinions -- one from each court you've named.


2d Circuit: Expressway Music, Inc. v. Slep-Tone Entm't Corp., No. 12cv834 (S.D.N.Y. Sep. 23, 2013) (denying motion to dismiss); Slep-Tone Entm't Corp. v. Golf 600, Inc., No. 14cv10040-JPO (S.D.N.Y. June 16, 2016) (granting summary judgment to Slep-Tone) ("Slep-Tone has shown a sound legal theory and factual basis for its claims").

4th Circuit: Slep-Tone Entm't Corp. v. Mainville, No. 3:11cv122 (W.D.N.C. Oct. 6, 2011) (denying Rule 12(b)(6) motion); Slep-Tone Entm't Corp. v. Powers, No. 5:12cv53-BO (E.D.N.C. Apr. 3, 2014) (denying defendant's motion for summary judgment).

5th Circuit: Phoenix Entm't Partners, LLC v. 2822 McKinney, LLC, No. 3:15cv639-D (N.D.Tex. May 22, 2015) (denying motion to dismiss).

6th Circuit: Slep-Tone Entm't Corp. v. Arrowood, No. 2:10cv592 (S.D.Ohio Sep. 26, 2011) (denying motion to dismiss).

8th Circuit: Phoenix Entm't Partners, LLC v. Lapadat, 123 F. Supp. 3d 1114 (D.Minn. 2015) (denying motion to dismiss).

11th Circuit: Slep-Tone Entm't Corp. v. Johnson, 518 Fed. Appx. 815 (11th Cir. 2013) (affirming judgment for plaintiff and reversing denial of permanent injunction); Phoenix Entm't Partners, LLC v. Aguayo, No. 2:16cv449 (M.D.Fla. Oct. 24, 2016) (denying motion to dismiss, expressly rejecting reasoning in Rumsey).

c. staley wrote:
Your boast, you prove it.


Time to move the goalposts again. Doesn't that get tiring?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:37 am 
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MtnKaraoke wrote:
Nope, can't play them. ...To do so would be a blatant compromise of that host's integrity.

Don't undermine the foundation upon which you stand.


Toastedmuffin wrote:
It might not be an issue in the 7th & 9th Districts, but there are 9 others where the jury is not out so to speak.

That being said, If you've stuck to your guns for the last 6+, don't see why you need to play the CDs now, in any form...


[emphasis in the above quote is mine]

I think Toastedmuffin understands.

Let us know when you re-introduce SC produced tracks or even their stripped down derivatives. I'm wagering you won't, because "to do so would be a blatant compromise of that host's integrity".

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