Karaoke Forums

Paradigm, Criminal and Civil Courts are two different things. You'll find many lawsuits are sealed if the parties involved agree to it.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

First of all, KAPA has said that would visit venue owners and inform them about piracy and encourage them to hire KAPA members. They are not forcing venues to do anything. Big difference. The key word is "encourage".

However, if a venue owner has been informed about piracy and how over 95% of KJ's are operating illegally and decides to disregard that information and operate illegally, then they deserved to get sued. I'm all for KAPA.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

History indicates that any effort along these lines in the United States will fail because of a lack of broad-based industry support.

There are at least three efforts I am aware of over the last fifteen years to start something like this, including one called KAPA, and all have died from malnutrition.

Just as there are 95% of KJ's operating illegally, there are 95% of venue owners who know nothing about this or that their KJ is using stolen tracks to run their shows. All they know is that they're getting someone real cheap to do karaoke.

Maybe instead of targeting KJ's, the focus should be venues. Sending out letters doesn't work. They'll just be trashed as junk mail. It has to be done in person.

Here's my proposal:

Go into the venues, in person, and directly speak with the owner. Discuss piracy, the Safe Harbor program and the ramifications of hiring someone operating illegally.

Then go on your merry way. Wait 3 months and if that venue still operating illegally, sue the son of a bi*ch. They were warned, and you followed up.

I'm sure, a lot of us would be willing to help by talking to bar owners and passing literature. Not making any accusations, just informing them about the situation.

As Mr. Harrington has stated, nothing so far has worked. Maybe nothing ever will. I don't know.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Which is NOT just limited to Pirate KJs.


And, on the other side of the coin, after KAPA informs a Venue about Piracy, and "ENCOURAGES" them to hire KAPA Members, the Venue/s may discriminate against (Non-Pirate) KJs just because they are NOT (paying) members of KAPA. You know as well as I do, that the Venues are NOT going to take the time to look at a KJs full collection and try to determine whether they are legit or not.

I think Paradigm's statement comes from what you just said here. If a (Non-Pirate) KJ is NOT a (paying) member of this KAPA group/organization, then they (KAPA) have no way of knowing if that KJ meets their "criteria." There have been quite a few KJs (here, on this Forum) who have been quite adamant about freely showing proof that they own discs to match with the song tracks downloaded on their hard drives, and have said they would tell these people where they can go if they were to approach them and ask for such proof. There's also some who said they'd be willing to show proof, but that the person asking would have to pay for their time (like that's going to ever happen). Thus, since they (KAPA) would have no way of telling if the (non-pirate) KJ was legit (since he is NOT a paying member of KAPA), they would (as you just stated) "logically" go after the Venue for hiring someone they did not approve of.

And, I would like to know what their authority entails, and to what extent they are allowed to enforce anything.

Cueball... There is nothing wrong with going after a venue that hired a KJ that is not a "member" if they have reason to do so. If their authority extends to a licensing requirement that carries penalties (like the other alphabet soups), then that would essentially be their mission: keep un-licensed KJ's out of the market.

I know you're making the distinction between a legit operator who is not a member and one that is not a member because they don't meet the criteria. The inherent problem lies in making that distinction.

I know there are people that are adamant about not being willing to prove they've purchased their tracks. I just don't understand why.

It follows, logically, that a venue is taking a greater risk by hiring those people, especially if the venue is aware of the facts and takes no action to verify the legitimacy of who they hire.

Why wouldn't a legit op want to be a part of an effort to promote and even increase the value of their business?

One reason I can think of is that the organization has no bite. A lot of barking, but muzzled by non-cooperation among parties with an interest (like Mr. Harrington said) and the flight by night nature of non-legit ops.

Another might be the fee. We don't know what that is exactly. Could it be a one time fee? Could it be annual? Could it be a scale-able depending on several factors? Would it require an audit or inventory?

_________________
Never the same show twice!

Although it's nice to be hopeful, I guess the reality is it's never going to change.

The only way it might change is if SC had people in every city, in every county, in every state. And ready to act on a lead the same day it was reported. That is what needs to be done to make it happen. A nationwide network designed and dedicated to end this once and for all. BUT... I don't ever see this happening. It will always be a lack of cooperation, resources, etc. But the truth is, there is no other way.

But like I said, I don't ever see it happening.

Do you know how frustrating it is reporting a venue/pirate to SC and 3 years later they're still out there in all their pirate glory. And Chartbuster is no better. Same applies to them too.

You know, as I'm typing this, it just occurred to me... why go on about this anymore? It's a joke. It's never going to change. We can discuss this until we're blue in the face, as we have for years and nothing has changed. Think about it... How long have we been having this discussion? Have you seen any changes? Has there been a decrease in piracy? I don't think so.

To Phil: Get rid of the "Karaoke Legalities & Piracy" forum. It's a non productive waste of time and has done nothing to help or better the industry.

To legal KJ's: Just do your thing. Life is to short and I'm getting too old to worry about such nonsense.

I'm done with this.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

there are tons of unlicensed knockoff Shure mics going around. you have to pay Shure to audit your mics to make sure they are the real deal. now, if you do not do this and join their club for a yearly fee, you can not, continue hosting karaoke.
there are tons of unlicensed knockoff Yamaha, Mackie, or A&H mixers, now you have to pay them to come audit your board to make sure you are using only real Yamaha, Mackie, or A&H boards. now, if you do not do this and join their club for a yearly fee, you can not, continue hosting karaoke.
there are tons of counterfeit HP Laptops going around, now you have to pay HP to come audit your hosting computer to make sure you are only using real HP, now, if you do not do this and join their club for a yearly fee, you can not, continue hosting karaoke.
there are so many torrent sites to download hosting software, now you must call your hosting software of choice company and pay them to do an audit of your software to make sure you are using only licensed version of their software, now if you do not do this and join their club for a yearly fee, you can not, continue hosting karaoke.
see how one or two companies making up their own rules is dangerous? would you be willing to go through that? i mean "Why wouldn't a legit op want to be a part of an effort to promote and even increase the value of their business?"



hiring Cueball who is ODB and not a member of the organization puts the venue at risk. he has done absolutely nothing wrong but is to be scrutinized and refused a job because the venues are being "encouraged" to hire only card holding members of an organization of a few manus?

how has SC promoted and increased the value of our businesses? all i see are more closed doors to venues. remember, i AM certified and one of the longest time ones as well and what you are predicting to happen is what was pitched nearly 5 years ago by SC and the opposite happened.the THOUGHT is correct, but the REALITY is the opposite.


nope, muzzled by themselves. they are suing, but showing no wins. we have tried time and again to help (the collective WE) and as posted in another thread, the certified hosts and those blowing the whistle have not had one single investigation on any reported pirate. not a single one. we (the collective WE) DID try, we were completely ignored and left to fend for ourselves after making the rounds and dirtying our own names as snitches. you are correct, they have no bite, but not because of everyone else, because of themselves. we gave SC the teeth, SC spit them out.


well, if you consider that just to get SC certified is $250 per rig, add in other manus, then a yearly club membership....

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Actually Alan, I'm all for keeping this forum. This way it keeps all the legality bickering and BS segregated to this forum and off of the rest of the board. This way if people aren't interested they can ignore the forum and not have to wade through 6 zillion legality threads (remember what it was like before the Legality Forum?). Also when any major legal announcements are made it's the first place for the manufactures to post and for us to look. Occasionally there actually are a few gems of information to be gleaned and taken advantage of.

Agreed... That is where the problem lies, because they (KAPA or some other Organization) would not be able to distinguish between one or the other (since both would not be a member of said organization), thus they were never given a certification or clean bill of health from them. But (as I stated before), when said organization goes out to "EDUCATE" the venues about piracy, and then they "ENCOURAGE" the venues to hire legit (Non-Pirate) KJs, they are telling them to do so by indicating all KJs registered with them as members are legit KJs... THUS IMPLYING that ALL OTHER KJs are Pirates (which is NOT TRUE).

First off, they may never get here. Second, HOW are they going to go to EVERY bar, pub, restaurant, bowling alley, moose, Amvets, VFW, etc, that may offer Karaoke, across this VERY large country we live in?? Does anyone here have ANY idea what an undertaking that would be, and the amount of resources that would take?? To fund such an endeavor would take an unGodly amount of money. The members would be paying for that, THROUGH the NOSE!! Why do you think SC only has, comparatively speaking, a handful of cases that is has settled, or even brought before a judge, in all the YEARS they have been litigating this stuff. KAPA probably won't get very far in the UK, either. Personally, I think this whole discussion is premature. It will never happen.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

The BluRay version of Jurassic Park is going to be 1080p and DTS or Dolby Surround. It will still be in digital file format so it doesn't require a BluRay player. So yes, the BluRay version is superior to the DVD version and more desirable, particularly to audiophiles.

The same applies to GEM.

While Spotlight discs have been ripped and been circulating for years, most of them are 128k or less in quality and a great many of them contain bad graphics. GEM is 320k and artifact free.

But the point is again that GEM is not freely available. I can't help that is due in part to the scruples of those who bought it and the controls put in place by SC/PEP.

_________________
-Chris

It is a global game of whack-a-mole and no company has the resources to make it work. The market for karaoke is not big enough to put the kind of money it would take.

Two months after they covered one town, they'd be 10 new pirates pop up in business. Then the same thing would continue to happen over and over. SC is the perfect example, they have thrown every punch they could but can only have short term effects in any market. Think of other ways to improve your business and stop thinking someone is going to come in and solve this, it's non-productive.

Only reason this section of the forum was created was to keep the legal threads out of the regular forum - which for the most part does.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Paradigm: I get the point you're trying to make. However, comparing the effortless copying and distribution of digital product to physical products is just absurd.

There are operations and government agencies in place that are there to combat counterfeiting and theft of physical product. I don't have to pay them extra to go after criminals.

The currently existing alphabet soups are the precedent for this kind of Performance Rights Organization. Are they in "every single" establishment in the country, collecting their fees? Probably not, but they have the authority to do so.

To be honest... I didn't pay anything for my certification/audit. I did it to make things easier for me and to promote and add value to my business. I also did it so the douche-bag with a pirate HDD would be seen for what they are and no longer be any competition for me. Your results in that regard are not mine. My audit was within 30 days or so of yours. I have gained several clients and replaced several pirates because of my approach regarding this issue. What happens there in Phoenix is not the same as here in Colorado. Elsewhere, your results may vary.

Cueball: You can't simply state that the implication is one extreme circumstance.
"...THUS IMPLYING that ALL OTHER KJs are Pirates ". That's simply not true.

The implication is that there is a high probability that KJ's who are not members of the organization are not legit. That IS true my ODB colleague. Hiring you wouldn't be a risk, but they'd still have to verify that somehow.

Notice that I said the venue is taking a risk if: "the venue is aware of the risks and takes no action to verify the legitimacy of who they hire." That means that the verification is on the venue, not the organization that represents already verified KJ's.

_________________
Never the same show twice!

Well, I was just on KAPA's site. They say it is voluntary, but it seems that either you join them or they will force you out of business. Bad form!! The ONLY good thing is that membership is cheap, $38.00 (25 pounds) a year. I don't think they would get very far, here in America with the attitude of making people join, or they won't be able to work. They are going to have the UK companies doing audits. I do not see how it can work, if England has even a THIRD of the KJs we have.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

You mean like.....a union?

_________________
-Chris

I wonder how that will play out in a Right to Work state. I live in one and Unions are pretty powerless here.

I only tossed that out to note there is a precedent for exactly what Smooth was referring to when saying "making people join, or don't work".

There is no sense even battling over KAPA because it won't be coming here any time soon and likely never. Too many obstacles in the states. The primary one being the KJ's themselves.

_________________
-Chris