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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:20 am 
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True enough Chris. I honestly would welcome a way to certify all of my library as legal at one place for a reasonable fee. So that the karaoke manufactures would be ok and I didn't have to worry about them.

I of course realize the fee might be more than $50 (just a number I through out). But if the manufactures are satisfied and leave me alone. I would be ok with that. But it has to cover everybody. That is what I would like to see.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:30 am 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
First off, they may never get here. Second, HOW are they going to go to EVERY bar, pub, restaurant, bowling alley, moose, Amvets, VFW, etc, that may offer Karaoke, across this VERY large country we live in?? Does anyone here have ANY idea what an undertaking that would be, and the amount of resources that would take?? To fund such an endeavor would take an unGodly amount of money. The members would be paying for that, THROUGH the NOSE!! Why do you think SC only has, comparatively speaking, a handful of cases that is has settled, or even brought before a judge, in all the YEARS they have been litigating this stuff. KAPA probably won't get very far in the UK, either. Personally, I think this whole discussion is premature. It will never happen.


If they would enlist the help of ASCAP or BMI and such it could be done. If these guys are supposed to keep the bar legal by paying their fees for juke boxes, bands, tv's etc., why can't they enforce legal karaoke?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:53 pm 
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Of course Chris the same goes for the ABA (Lawyers), the ADA (Dentists), the AMA (Medical Doctors), and just about any other professional association. In none of those professions can you practice without belonging. Could you imagine what would happen if any of them say "I have my degree, why should I have to belong to your association in order to practice. Now leave me alone and let me do my job. Stop costing me money every year with your foolish and expensive fees."

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:36 am 
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Lone Wolf wrote:

If they would enlist the help of ASCAP or BMI and such it could be done. If these guys are supposed to keep the bar legal by paying their fees for juke boxes, bands, tv's etc., why can't they enforce legal karaoke?


We would be happy for the PROs to enforce for us. The problem is that the PROs represent the music publishers, and they consider it a conflict of interest to represent producers as well--karaoke or otherwise.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:44 am 
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F.U.D.

timberlea wrote:
Of course Chris the same goes for the ABA (Lawyers), the ADA (Dentists), the AMA (Medical Doctors), and just about any other professional association. In none of those professions can you practice without belonging.


As someone once said; "You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts."

In the United States, membership in the AMA, ADA or even the ABA is voluntary and not mandatory, so yes, you CAN "practice without belonging."

timberlea wrote:
Could you imagine what would happen if any of them say "I have my degree, why should I have to belong to your association in order to practice. Now leave me alone and let me do my job. Stop costing me money every year with your foolish and expensive fees."


And that is a perfectly accurate example of what any of them can say and continue their practices. Nothing "would happen." Attorneys are governed by their home State Bar, doctors by State Boards. Each of which regulate governmental licensing, not a trade "association."

Nice try.

Of course the difference here is that in order to be a karaoke operator, you're not required to have any kind of degree, special training, standards, minimum education or anything else.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:09 am 
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There is a difference between.....

FUD which is an intentional obfuscation to further ones position and.....not knowing all the facts and speaking out of ignorance.

The former knows exactly what the information is an purposefully twists and distorts the truth to their own end. The latter simply doesn't know and doesn't have all the correct information.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:48 am 
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chrisavis wrote:
There is a difference between.....

FUD which is an intentional obfuscation to further ones position and..



Intentional obfuscation presented as statement of fact to further one's position:
timberlea wrote:
In none of those professions can you practice without belonging.


Anyone can locate the correct information (via google.com or wikipedia) within seconds from almost every country on the planet.

chrisavis wrote:
...not knowing all the facts and speaking out of ignorance.


I wouldn't call any member here "ignorant" even if technically correct because I believe it's a poor word choice and simply inflammatory, but your mileage may vary.

Carry on.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:13 am 
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c. staley wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
There is a difference between.....

FUD which is an intentional obfuscation to further ones position and..



Intentional obfuscation presented as statement of fact to further one's position:
timberlea wrote:
In none of those professions can you practice without belonging.


Anyone can locate the correct information (via google.com or wikipedia) within seconds from almost every country on the planet.

chrisavis wrote:
...not knowing all the facts and speaking out of ignorance.


I wouldn't call any member here "ignorant" even if technically correct because I believe it's a poor word choice and simply inflammatory, but your mileage may vary.

Carry on.


Sigh......

Yes, Timberlea should have fact checked.
No, I don't believe anyone (but you) feels he intentionally suppressed his own knowledge to further his point. That would be lying, not ignorance. I am fairly certain you know the difference all too well.

Let the games begin.....

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:07 pm 
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chrisavis wrote:

Let the games begin.....

"May the odds be ever in your favor."

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:26 am 
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The point being, and Chippie usually misses the point, is those people need to be certified in order to do their jobs, whether it be in an association or government certified.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:48 am 
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timberlea wrote:
The point being, and Chippie usually misses the point, is those people need to be certified in order to do their jobs, whether it be in an association or government certified.

They have much more important positions than Karaoke hosts. They HAVE to be certified. The government doesn't care about KJs. The ONLY ones who want to certify KJs are the mfrs. That is more like a carpenter needing to be certified by the Estwing Company in order to work using Estwing hammers.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:45 am 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
timberlea wrote:
The point being, and Chippie usually misses the point, is those people need to be certified in order to do their jobs, whether it be in an association or government certified.

They have much more important positions than Karaoke hosts. They HAVE to be certified. The government doesn't care about KJs. The ONLY ones who want to certify KJs are the mfrs. That is more like a carpenter needing to be certified by the Estwing Company in order to work using Estwing hammers.


I believe it is more than just one manufacturer that wants certification.

I will suggest that if a poll were taken of a large portion of karaoke hosts, that there might be a fair amount of support from KJ's supporting the notion of a "KJ License" to be able to be a karaoke host. I have spoken face to face with a LOT of KJ's in the past 5 years and this very thing has come up quite often. I see it discussed in the DJ world now and then as well.

Also, we had 3 manus at one point with some sort of "certification or verification". If the KAPA stuff sticks, and it turns out they actually do have the full support of the UK manus, then we actually have almost ALL of the remaining manus supporting some form of certification and verification (even if they can't implement it in the US......yet).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:35 am 
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timberlea wrote:
The point being, and Chippie usually misses the point, is those people need to be certified in order to do their jobs, whether it be in an association or government certified.


There was no point other than the information you posted was just flat-out wrong and misleading. Any "certifications" and more importantly, "licenses" for doctors, lawyers and even dentists in order to practice are granted and governed by government agencies and not trade associations or even former vendors.

You can't deny the facts. And your "facts" for these occupations in the United States were just wrong. Perhaps in Canada you need just a membership in a trade association to be a doctor, but I wouldn't presume to know any of the Canadian laws.

Nice try. (again)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:43 am 
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Yet again, several more examples of the moot nature of analogies. From the legal side: An analogy, flawed from the get-go, does not a precedent make...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:51 pm 
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chrisavis wrote:
I will suggest that if a poll were taken of a large portion of karaoke hosts, that there might be a fair amount of support from KJ's supporting the notion of a "KJ License" to be able to be a karaoke host. I have spoken face to face with a LOT of KJ's in the past 5 years and this very thing has come up quite often. I see it discussed in the DJ world now and then as well.
Try polling them in my neck of the woods. I can't speak about the KJs in your area, but in my area, I would venture to say that at least 75% of the KJs do not have any type of Business License and they work Off-the-Books (this statement includes KJs who are Pirates, KJs who run a system with a Non-Pirated Library, Part-Time KJs, and Full Time KJs). I can GUARANTEE you that those 75% I refer to would NOT be willing to get a Business License (or some sort of KJ License), because then they would no longer be paid Off-the-Books (and you know what that would mean).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:05 pm 
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Wow new can of legal worms open. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:13 pm 
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Most civil ordinances, are based upon "Slippery Slope Logic".

If you do this, that will surely follow.

False on it's face..

Lawyers are trained in slippery slope first.. ethics and maybe morals second and third..

Who make laws? Lawyers.. (Well they are elected, right?)

The system is broken..


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:13 am 
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jdmeister wrote:
Most civil ordinances, are based upon "Slippery Slope Logic".

If you do this, that will surely follow.

False on it's face..

Lawyers are trained in slippery slope first.. ethics and maybe morals second and third..

Who make laws? Lawyers.. (Well they are elected, right?)

The system is broken..


I'm surprised that you would put ethics and morals that high on the list--even though for most lawyers, ethical considerations are No. 1.

Here's the thing, though--you want lawyers writing laws. The more involvement non-lawyers have in the process of lawmaking, the easier it is for lawyers to open up loopholes that subvert the entire point of the law. The same goes for contracts. I've yet to see a contract drafted by a non-lawyer that I couldn't get around if it were in my client's interest to do so.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:18 am 
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HarringtonLaw wrote:
jdmeister wrote:
Most civil ordinances, are based upon "Slippery Slope Logic".

If you do this, that will surely follow.

False on it's face..

Lawyers are trained in slippery slope first.. ethics and maybe morals second and third..

Who make laws? Lawyers.. (Well they are elected, right?)

The system is broken..


I'm surprised that you would put ethics and morals that high on the list--even though for most lawyers, ethical considerations are No. 1.

Here's the thing, though--you want lawyers writing laws. The more involvement non-lawyers have in the process of lawmaking, the easier it is for lawyers to open up loopholes that subvert the entire point of the law. The same goes for contracts. I've yet to see a contract drafted by a non-lawyer that I couldn't get around if it were in my client's interest to do so.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:31 am 
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jdmeister wrote:
Most civil ordinances, are based upon "Slippery Slope Logic".

Lawyers are trained in slippery slope first.. ethics and maybe morals second and third..

The system is broken..


Speaking of ethics (or lack thereof) . . . Here's a future lawyer and/or CEO in the making.

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