Karaoke Forums

I am new to this site. I posted this in the Sound Choice forum, and wanted to get some thoughts on this:

So, at least one manufacturer is now recruiting KJs to assist in the field work of investigating reports of illegal karaoke operators. The company will send the "reviewer" information on the suspected violators and information on how to proceed. This includes talking to the KJ, obtaining video/photographic evidence, etc. Sounds like the industry is finally getting serious about going after the violators.

I was recruited to become a reviewer. I am happy to provide my assistance. However, after reviewing the terms of the "agreement", I was more than a little turned off.

My assistance does not result in me getting paid whatsoever. I guess I wouldn't have a problem with not getting paid if these companies were being put out off business for good, but I thought about the end result, and I feel as if I am REALLY getting screwed.

Like many other KJs, I have suffered tremendous losses as illegal operators have rose up in force in my area. No matter how good I am at my job, I am constantly hounded by the fact that my bar owners keep getting marketing material from suspected violators saying that they will do their show for $75-$100. If I want to go out and twist arms to get new shows, I have to abide by the new market rate in my area - $75-$100 a night. Furthermore, the proliferation of illegal karaoke has diluted the market. So many bars now do karaoke (because of the increase in competition and decrease in market rate), what was once a very profitable night has now turned into a question as to whether or not the bar will actually make money.

So, you would think that my participation in the reviewer program would help put an end to the illegal competition. It will, but I don't stand to gain anything. In fact, they are turning a bad situation into something worse.

Let's say that there are two scenarios that could happen. 1) The manufacturer sues the alleged infringer and receives compensation. The reviewer that did the field works receives nothing. Sure, the infringer is out of business, but I get nothing for my field work. I could live with this scenario if, like I said, they were put out of business. But this is not the most likely scenario.

Most likely, they will work with the infringer to get them legal. The manufacturer will make them purchase thousands of dollars worth of music. The reviewer still receives nothing. What they do get is screwed by the manufacturer because they will finance this purchase and take what was illegal competition and provide the means of making them legal. So now, KJs that had a glimmer of hope of recouping some of their losses are now placed in a position of facing increased LEGAL competition, enabled by the very manufacturers that appeared to be providing a solution to illegal karaoke. Sure, it is a solution, but the solution benefits nobody but the manufacturers and the infringers. And remember, the reviewer still receives nothing.

My suggestion to the manufacturer that recruited me is to include my name in the lawsuit so that I have a way to recoup some of my losses. (Stay tuned, I'll update this to provide their response.)

It just seems as if this solution is by no means a solution because it screws the honest KJs, (those that have always been honest) who, industry wide, have experienced losses that probably far exceed the manufacturers. Yet, the manufacturers, enabled by the KJs, and the infringers are the only ones who are getting rewarded.

LONMAN responded via Sound Choice Sound Board:

It will help in the sense that the pirate does have to pay for their library, however they are in no way going to have everything they once did nor stuff that I have on disc that they cannot get anymore. Playing field has turned around.
Now since Chartbuster and I heard Pop Hits Monthly as well are going to be joining in on these suits as well (although this is forum rumor, I have no reason to doubt it), the pirate that used to have all songs, will now only have what is currently available from each manu and singers will be wondering where their songs are now that they used to be able to sing.
So even though it may not change the fact that a pirate may not get out of the business and continue to charge the crap prices, they now will have no real selection that once gave them their only edge.

My Response to LONMAN:

I remember when I got started on my own in the karaoke business, I had to clear a major hurdle - financing. No bank would touch me, nor did I have any investors lined up. I had to use a military enlistment bonus to start my business. That major hurdle of funding any business is what keeps so many people from becoming an entrepreneur in any given industry.

Now, thanks to the advent of technology, anyone can circumvent the process of purchasing legal karaoke music and start a karaoke business with little more than $500-$1,000. That amount of money won't buy the best equipment available, but it will get them started in the business.

You mention that their music selection is their only edge - not true in my case. They also have an advantage in pricing. They don't need to make a return on their investment in their library, whereas I do.

Don't anyone assume that these people are always incapable of running a karaoke show. Some of the guys I suspect of running illegal karaoke are formidable competition. Just because someone runs illegal karaoke does not mean that they aren't just as entertaining as you, just as well-versed in sound management as you, or just as good at promoting a show as you. That makes it worse.

My problem is that the end result will almost never benefit the KJs, especially the KJ that did the field work under the impression that he/she was helping to put an end to illegal karaoke. Instead, what will happen is that the manufacturer will enable them to become legal competition. And, do you think that the infringer won't still have illegal tracks available to their "regulars"? How easy it to have tracks on your computer/CAVS player and just not "advertise" them in the books.

I just disagree with the concept of having my work enable the karaoke manufacturers to recoup potentially millions of dollars in losses while I get no remedy for my losses. Instead, I get competition that, with the help of the karaoke manufacturers, were able to clear the major hurdle of financing their "new" business, now all nice and legal.

Why was I never offered financing when I sought to start my karaoke business?

This is no different than, say, a Beer Distributor financing the construction of a new bar across the street from the bar you own after asking you to do some of the prep work under the guise of making you think that it was actually going to help you. Instead, it only hurts you - but that beer distributor sure does have another bar it can sell beer to.

No bank would touch me either, my first system was rented music and pawn shop PA system (total investment was maybe $600 out of my pocket). Didn't even have a cdg player (still farily new back then however). I charged enough to be able to purchase at least 2 laserdiscs a week ($125 per pop at that time). Once I had the entire rental library, I started upgrading equipment & cdg capability.

They might be able to get some crappy equipment for $500-1000, but not the music 'legally'. How do you figure they would have any kind of real selection legally for $500-1000 including equipment?

When they actually have to start buying music, then they do have something to re-coup.


No not all pirates are incapable of running a good show, but these are low pecentages (at least around here). Majority of the pirate shows (around here and others i've seen in other cities/states) do not have any kind of sound knowledge nor personality or any kind of hosting skills to speak of - many hosts I know get into it because they think they can sing more.

Well since part of the agreement of purchasing the legal set of music is to delete anything else and be subjected to audits at anytime so if I happen to see a company playing a bunch of songs that they do not have listed (I think this should be a stipulation of the lawsuits settlements as well) in a physical book, then they can be subjected to further and harsher penalties via lawsuits.
Competition is just that, so what if the manu is making a pirate go legit or get out. If these pirates had purchased the music legit to begin with and STILL charged the low prices, no one would have anything to (@$%&#!) about except that they are lowballers and underpricing the industry into extinction.

Sucks, but is life.

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I don't like that the people could potentially still be in business either. I guess for some of the successful multirigger companies it was worth their while to settle and stay in business. But it does increase their overhead so they would have to quit working for nothing.

From our area I would say that the numbers of pirates would actually be cut. We have more of the lowlife contingent who wouldn't have the money even for time payments. The multi-rigger charges so little per show (the person next door to us gets $35) that I can't see how it would be feasible for them to settle for all of their systems, especially when they are bringing in so little.

One thing that HAS happened is the multi-rigger has caught wind of the whole thing and suddenly their songbooks have gone from 100,000 to 2,000. We have had a few come to our shows saying they can't sing their songs next door any more. Ofcourse it doesn't mean regulars won't know to ask for songs not in the books. We seem to have an increase in the "do you have anything not in your books" question lately.

When I say they circumvent the process of buying legal music, that means that they get around it. The $500-$1000 will buy a starter system. Possible a good one at that if they scour CraigsList for deals. They aren't buying legal music, so that is all the investment they need to get started.

I have been around the country and my nights out exploring almost always include karaoke. I am almost always shocked by the quality of karaoke I find. Charleston, SC, Savannah, GA, Pensacola, FL, and outside every military base I have ever been to. I always remark that these karaoke companies wouldn't make it in Western Michigan. The competition here is stiff, a lot of very talented people running karaoke. I don't know why that is, other than to say that Michigan is big on karaoke because it is always so darn cold outside maybe? Another reason possibly is that there was, at one time, a very large karaoke company (15 systems) that dominated karaoke for so long. They did a good job recruiting and training people, so it is also possible that they set the bar rather high for everyone else.

If you were to compare one show to another show around here, you would find that they are almost all done very well. Very few slackers around here.

If you ever get around West Michigan, check "us" out.

We started our show just a few years ago because we couldn't find a good one to go to and thought people might appreciate one. But the venues don't seem aware that there could be anything different or that paying for it would actually make a difference in attendance so we had a slow start.

We are not sound engineers like some on here, we have what some would call mid-entry level equipment and don't consider ourselves to be all that hot although we try to be fun and friendly and creative and give good service by ordering songs by request, etc. Yet when we finally started getting shows people were giving us better reviews than we expected. Just goes to show what they had gotten used to.

Not trying to put ourselves down. Just saying I think the main damage that the pirates did around here was devalue the image of karaoke. It has been a hard thing to break out of.

You don't have to be a pirate to give karaoke a bad reputation.

We do have a couple of "bad" karaoke hosts here, but they are LEGAL. These are the guys running 2,000 songs with nothing from this century. In the past, I have had to help owners to overcome their previous experience with karaoke. Their experience is a bunch of soda/water drinkers that sing the same old songs every week and create a depressing atmosphere that makes the bar NO money.

In fact, I would say that in my area, the legal guys have done more to damage the reputation of karaoke than the illegal ones.

2000 songs and none from this century is a familiar description to me.........

Problem is the investigations don't care one bit if the pirated music is not Sound Choice.

It is fully possible to run a show without SC music, and cracking down only on pirates with SC music will do little or nothing to change the business.

Yes a couple of other manus are now working with SC but I have not heard them running their own investigations.

I have a foggy memory of a group, funded by film companies. You could call them and turn in somebody for bootlegging (back them in the VHS recorded from laser disc format) and they would send a cease and desist. But, if the movie in question was made by a company NOT in their group (not a dues paying member) they wouldn’t do anything, or tell the company in question.

I had a huge issue with this guy and he was a bootlegger. I looked into this because I was pissed off at him. I looked over his “catalog” and it was obvious that he already knew this because, by and large, his catalog was free and clear of any films from the “dues paying member” companies.

Not a perfect analogy but a bit similar.

Well, I will say this much. The company that is recruiting me to be a reviewer is NOT Sound Choice. Also, the information I received mentions that the action may be filed in parallel with other Plaintiffs, so it sounds like they are indeed working with each other now.

They want me to agree to an audit, which I will do no matter what. I am happy to open up my karaoke library to inspection - I say as much in my song books (I have an anti piracy statement in my books). I would rather not have to go through what I understand is a "Guilty Until Proven Innocent" lawsuit/action.

I do have about 20 songs out of 15,000 that I purchased from BuyKaraokeDownloads.com. Someone somewhere questioned the legality of this site, so I started to wonder.

Well TroyVnd27, why not just tell us who's solicting your help? What would it matter, the situation will continue with or without your help?

Maybe some more on this site would like to help out as well?

Was it something I said?

One way to look at it is, the return you will recieve by gaining new business potential becaues there will be a void created when the illegal kj operators will not have the financial means to remain in business legally. Say there are 10 kys in your market and of thoes 10, 3 are operating legally. Of the 7 that are illegal 5 can no longer pay up and the other 2 have now a made a substantial invenstment buying legal music and they have to raise their prices to get a return on their investment.
You might be able to pick up a new gig or even be able to rais you rate since the market might support it. You see where this might go.......... You will indirectly get a financial return on efforts. If the program is not for you then by all means don't do it.

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I think you missed the part where I said that the manufacturers are financing them to purchase their music.