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Should we add any of these features to the SS?
Delete comment 3%  3%  [ 4 ]
Delete comment 3%  3%  [ 4 ]
Preview comment before approving 6%  6%  [ 8 ]
Preview comment before approving 6%  6%  [ 8 ]
Report inappropriate submission 5%  5%  [ 7 ]
Report inappropriate submission 5%  5%  [ 7 ]
All three features 22%  22%  [ 30 ]
All three features 22%  22%  [ 30 ]
Leave things as they are 14%  14%  [ 20 ]
Leave things as they are 14%  14%  [ 20 ]
Total votes : 138
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:16 pm 
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It's not so much that people aren't "tough enough" to do-so.  Actual Critiquing is well-intended.  It's to HELP another person.  When the intent is to fulfill the apparent wishes of another party, and others viewing the "Critique" in addition to the person receiving the Critique get defensive, it's a slap in the face to the person who's not Judging another negatively, but assuming the Critique is a TRUE critique trusting the person can receive the comments AS a positive experience.  When ever I give a Critique I am very nervous,  It's NOT easy, there's risk involved in ALL cases,  unfortuneately though Charmin,  the risk in SS of the Critiquing individual getting slapped in the face is EXTREMELY high..  Nathan was attacked awhile back,  JRJ,  Seby, and a mulititude of others offering Critique have become Pinjata's for angry recipients...  One solution I can think of, would be for the person who is being given the Critique to stick up for the Critiquing party and say to those disagreeing with the critique..  "I Respect ____'s candor, and he furnished me with the type of feedback I requested",but that also doesn't happen.  What's the solution ?   I don't know.  The person giving Critiques ISN"T a tough drill-sgt, or somebody who should need to be a pillar of granite.  ONE compromise I believe can be made is that MANY in the site CAN moderate the site themselves and agree to welcome those offering Critique where Critique HAS been requested.... ALigning themselves with Critiquers rather than siding against them..  The numbers in SS go against the Critiquer, and this is a big problem...  

JMO

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:25 pm 
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Quote:
You stated you know some don't want it. Honest question, NOT meant to belittle you in ANY way.... are you, yourself, afeared of people bashing you if you critique a C sub where it was not truly wanted? Honestly... If it's C, why don't you?


I'll answer this yet again... YES.  NOBODY likes to be bashed when their intent is a positive intent !   I'm no tougher than anybody else !   I don't like being abused. I do care, and always HAVE.  I'm not impervious to having my feelings hurt just because I'm willing to Critique.   THIS is why I opt to critique in a mature setting.  If 10 ask for Critique, and only 2 want a Critique, this makes odds slim that I won't end up making enemies in time regardless how well constructed my critique may be. It's tough to GIVE, and TAKE the critique..

ADDED IN:

I  think a misunderstanding among some might be that the person who gives the Critique is a person walking into "the ring", meaning he (or she) should be able to take blows, and defensive punches... Somebody Critiquing another individual is NOT trying to fight them, challenge them, or need to be put in a position where they should have to defend themselves what-so-ever.  ALL they must be able to do is substantiate their opinion logically, reasonably, and construct something HELPFUL, and positive so the other individual grows and comes away feeling positive..BOTH parties should feel the experience is a positive one... THERE IS NO room for ego, and defensiveness, camouflaged bashing, etc..  The process is a mature tough process...   It's not a fight

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:29 pm 
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up above speaks the "man" who put the w back in anchor


Oh Vicki  <blush>

Now you had to go and tell everybody   :biggrinthumb:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:44 pm 
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I know Steven, I know-I know- I know.... how people get slammed with they go in there, with the best of intentions, and give critique. I've seen it.

I do NOT understand WHY someone would go to "C" subs only. That makes it appear that they truly want to cause unrest by "telling it like it is". Because, honestly, ALOT of the better singers, from what I've seen.... sub JFF.  

My point is, I'll say it again.... if people START giving it.... it will BECOME THE NORM. I mean, good lord, everyone thinks it's "monkey see, monkey do" (and yeah, some of it is) then..... hell, monkey needs to start giving critique where it's asked for.  Not try to determine who REALLY wants it and who REALLY doesn't. Hell, again, it's BEING ASKED FOR. So give your honest assessment.

I understand what you're saying. I am not a person to be "qualified to give pro critiques", but I feel, in a karaoke realm... I could point out things useful to people that I hear on subs. But I don't either, very rarely, for the same reason. You do NOT know how people will react. What it all boils down to (to me) is this: It's a fun site, about karaoke not professionalism, and I have fun here. Period. So I stay away from stuff that will cause animosity. (when I can, unlike my being in this dang thread still)

So, here we all sit, in the same boat, bytching that it wont change.... but nobody is taking steps to change it. No reason the "serious" ones can't listen and comment to the "non-serious ones" and vise versa. Pretty soon, people would realize that true critique is for the better of everyone, and maybe everyone would... rather than get *drastic changes* that would fix it all... we'd meet in the middle. A few more or less options may help, they may work for a time, but they will NOT permanently change the structure of SS. That's why I say... leave it as is, make changes, what-the-hell-ever... anything to stop all this stuff.  It doesn't make ME think very highly of people when I sub a song and they all say "wow, this was perfect... you nailed it" only to have Don email me and tell me I was flat thoughout most of the chorus, or that my voice was all over the song. I don't think "who cares, I got good remarks" nor do I think "ah, they're so nice to me".... I think "the dang little liars". Yeah, I know, the sub is JFF, but still.. people do tend to carry on, rather than leaving a simple comment. (sometimes) Actually, I'm thinking my latest is one of those "so-so" subs, I must have done something terribly wrong... LOL... because nobody is elaborating too much. That is a sure sign of people being nice and letting me know they listened, without trying to blow it all up. THAT I DO appreciate:) They're not over-fluffing, but their not giving an un-asked-for critique either. Sometimes... the fluff is balanced that way. If that makes any sense to you..??

Ah well. I gotta hit the hay soon... my barn stall awaits me, I'm getting sleepy.

.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:47 pm 
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Steven Kaplan @ Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:29 pm wrote:
Quote:
up above speaks the "man" who put the w back in anchor


Oh Vicki  <blush>

Now you had to go and tell everybody   :biggrinthumb:


???????

w + anchor =

wanchor

anchorw

awnchor

anwchor

ancwhor

anchwor

anchowr

Charmin is CONFUSED.....  :(

.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:49 pm 
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I agree,  I go to listen to a person, or a SONG.... I don't go "C" hunting,  that would mean I have some sort've issue I need to prove !     When I listen, if I feel I can be helpful, and the person sub's in "C", I listen, and relisten in hopes of making a positive difference in the persons experience, and even-so I STILL worry  :shock: .. There's always a chance for rejection when you Critique ANYBODY especially friends, those close, etc... It's TOUGH TOUGH TOUGH,  no kidding !    But why make it even tougher ?   If I had a wish for SS, it'd be that those asking for a Critique, and exploiting the person OBVIOUSLY trying to help them was delt with strictly !   To me CHarmin, THAT is the problem...

A person requests Critique

Somebody gives a fair critique

The person requesting the Critique goes wild on them as if they are arrogantly impinging themselves when in fact all they've stated is "I heard one or two pitchy spots, but I like the song"...


THIS should be addressed Charmin.... SERIOUSLY !  THis is the biggest problem, and it happens ALOT..

Unless this is delt with, NOTHING will enable Critque to work in such a site.  Members should collectively reprimand the person lashing at the Critiquing individual attempting to accomodate their request for "C".. THat is the LEAST that can be done.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:50 pm 
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Psssssst...I'll tell ya later  :whistle:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:53 pm 
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:biggrinthumb:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:55 pm 
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I need to get to sleep too,  I've been really busy doing all sorts of yechy stuff preparing for "stuff"... Anyway,  night-all,  sweet dreams... and don't let the dancing babies bite  LOL


Quote:
but nobody is taking steps to change it. No reason the "serious" ones can't listen and comment to the "non-serious ones" and vise versa


I am hoping administration will consider a club, site, or forum that WILL allow this, which is why I keep bringing it up.  If more want it, they too can get in on the concept, and contribute ANY idea they may have.. It's for ALL that wish for Critique to work, not one or two... If it's only one or two it CAN NOT work.  It's the ONLY constructive means I believe is doable.  I don't think people in SS wish to see or be a part of the true Critique process.  It goes against the grain, and this has been my supposition.  Hence,  Leave SS to those that like it without making changes,  MANY like it as is...  Create, or at least give a chance to those who wish for Critique to have such an oppt to utilize it..  It's ALL I know that will work.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:05 pm 
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If others wish for this, jump aboard, and we can prepare some proposal for Administration.  ASSUMING they will consider it.  I would ask them first... I am willing to help arrange this,  but it's up to ALL others to kick in some ideas, and let me know if people TRULY DO want a site for the more "serious" "intense", critical (or whatever terms may be used) "folks".  It'd require a site description, civility, and ideas CAN be taken from other venues that DO have Critique options that work.  It's not my site though.  All I can do is suggest what I believe could be a decent addition without taking anything away from the current set-up EXCEPT for perhaps a few members IF that... They will still sub in SS... Just have other options too

Time to hit the hey/mattress, or whatever we old farts hit ..

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:21 pm 
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Ah, well....... my own "gotta hit the hay" hasn't happened yet. I work all the good hours now, so when a friday or saturday night rolls around, I enjoy getting the chance to be online.

I'm still over in the showcase listening:)

(for a bit longer)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:28 pm 
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nite both of you, sorry been recording so I guess I missed ya

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:28 am 
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Steven Kaplan @ Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:05 am wrote:
If others wish for this, jump aboard, and we can prepare some proposal for Administration.  ASSUMING they will consider it.  I would ask them first... I am willing to help arrange this,  but it's up to ALL others to kick in some ideas, and let me know if people TRULY DO want a site for the more "serious" "intense", critical (or whatever terms may be used) "folks".  It'd require a site description, civility, and ideas CAN be taken from other venues that DO have Critique options that work.  



Steven ...... Don, Luly, Jian and I are working HARD on getting the list of "changes" that have been requested in these threads organized and into email.vote format.  One of those options is to have an additional Area in the Forums "CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK CORNER" ...... so please, know that your desires (and perhaps the desires of others) HAS been noted, and WILL be included in the VOTE.  It is NOT necessary for you to form a group and write a proposal to submit to ADMIN.  THAT is already being taken of ........ and if they start getting too many "proposals" from folks....... they'll not consider any of them viable.  What we are putting together is a COMPLETE list of the things that have been suggested.  Members will vote on which changes they'd like to see ...... or not see.  Based on majority ....... those options that seem to be the wishes of the MAJORITY ...... will be submitted to the ADMIN for consideration.    Please hang tight...... and give us some time to get this job done.  IF you are still unhappy with the results when all has been SAID AND DONE ..... THEN write to admin..... if you so choose.  

Thanks.....  :hug:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:29 am 
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Additional area in the forums entitled "Constructive Feedback Corner" sounds like an excellent proposal Cindy !


Just a place that allows "Critique" for those that have a right to it, is what I believe is fair.  Otherwise having the :term: as it has existed thus-far, is a catalyst for strife.



btw Charmin,  Here's a brief idea I got,  haven't really mulled it over yet.  The best way to bring change about (assuming change is going to be made) is in numbers in a setting like SS...  IE..

You and I recently critiqued an individual who specified "please critique me honestly and constructively, this is how I learn".  Now we both trust that this individual means this, and will take our Critiques as they were intended to help HIM...

What if Karaoke Scene were to form a group of about 6+ members who form a pact with one-another to strongly support one-another in the process AS LONG as all feel the others in the Critiquing group have been fair !    What this means is assuming a person gets bashed for fair Critique in SS (in the eyes of this agreeing group) the group sticks together and staunchly tells the person who CAN'T handle a Critique,  

"Don't sub in C if you don't want C"..  The intent was to fulfill YOUR request and perceived desire for C... Not  to give you something you do not want"

I believe that AS LONG as all in a Critique group Critique individually, WITHOUT agreeing or disagreeing (with past Critiques given displaying ANY type of "I agree with So and So's Critique" within the body of their Critique) this can work. If Critiques happen to overlap unintentially sobeit,  that means they are likely pretty accurate assessments.. But  ALL critiques given must be totally original, not prompted by others Critiques (in order to help). Often the Critiquing person will NOT want to read past Critiques prior to submitting their own Critique.  Critique should not be a continuation of another persons "Critique" in the same site.. Critiquing should show individuality, and not "cliquish" behaviour...

I think if the intent is to HELP another, and this is agreed upon by a group, numbers sticking up for the Critiquing process might be a way to go about change in an otherwise resistant enviroment.

I'm going to post PART of this in the Singers Forum as a new topic.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:42 pm 
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Steven Kaplan @ Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:29 am wrote:
btw Charmin,  Here's a brief idea I got


Heading over to address this in the thread you made Steven. (i saw it, but have not posted there yet...)

Cindy, heck yes I think that's a good idea. Rather than totally reforming what is NOW the C category, a whole new critique corner, where it would be stated "you will be honestly critiqued here, please be prepared to accept any and all opinions".

Maybe then, if someone freaked out on a critiquer, ie...couldn't take it, or if someone went in there for the sole purpose of being a sniper, they could simply lose the priviledge of going into that area again. Might be that a few simple rules in a NEW area might keep it all clean. (maybe... or am I dreaming still)  LOL

I don't know. As I sit here *astraddle of this fence*, I'm falling to one side, then the other, then I right myself... only to start slipping the other way.

I'd like to see everyone be happy here, I'd like to see people subbing C get the advice/help they are actually asking for.... but yet I don't want to see SS lose it's charisma. It's a fun place. If changes can come about, without losing it's "fun" appeal, that would be great.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:47 pm 
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Same here Charmin,  It CAN get confusing... "Keep it as is for those that enjoy it", or "try to integrate Critique into it"...  THis is where I too get confused.  Personally I don't think Critique can work in the current SS setting UNLESS there's a VERY strong group behind it supporting it... but I may be wrong.


(One problem with using the editor in here is that Charmin became Chairman.. LOL , It takes more time using this editor than it does to use a dictionary

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:59 pm 
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When I first came here I thought "C" was for comment. I'm sure it explains all of this somewhere and I just don't remember where it this moment.

Some kind of warning that peple will see before posting in the catagory of "C" and a disclaimer that "SS" can not be held repsonsible if the critique is to the point and it still hurts.

Just a thought.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:13 pm 
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Steven Kaplan @ Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:47 pm wrote:
(One problem with using the editor in here is that Charmin became Chairman.. LOL , It takes more time using this editor than it does to use a dictionary


Yes, it has LONG pizzed me off that spell check does not recognize my name, and wants to rename me every time.

Just as, when I was a little girl... all those bracelets, necklaces, engraved pencils.... all that cute jazz you could buy "pre-made" at the store... I could NEVER find my name on ANY of them:) It used to be the same with my daughter (her name is Cheyenne) but now that the name is more common, you see it included on stuff like that. We recently bought necklaces, really cute ones. Hers says "Cheyenne"... my daughter in law got one that says her name "Amber"... while I had to settle for a cute silver one that said "Rebel".  LMAO

*poor Charmin*  :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:37 pm 
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hey I had the same prob cos most stuff said vicky not vicki

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:50 pm 
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I like Wicki.


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