Karaoke Forums

Well Steven, actually it was usually from a running skit between Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtin.  But I did some research and found this rare out take clip featuring Dan that seems somehow appropriate wouldn't you think?  LOL

http://download.yousendit.com/2D1EA7FA098AB569

Thanks for your input Russ !    It'd be nice to hear from more over in Singer's Showcase that don't typically frequent the bboards.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Well, one problem I have with it, is I don't really see the problem. I haven't really had any rude, underhanded, out of control comments to my songs (not that I am now advertising for some). Plus I've been to many of the people's songs in this thread and I've never seen anything bad or out of the ordinary. Granted, SS is big and I can't cover all of it. Also it sounds like a lot of this occurred perhaps during the holiday time period when I was doing other things. That alone is a good indicator though if these problems only recently, briefly appeared. Perhaps it is just an aberration?

I agree with Stephen, that generally putting censoring tools on comment submissions can lead to more retaliatory problems and misunderstandings elsewhere. Plus it increases the inaccuracy and unbias of comments leading to unreal, practically useless comments. I call it Strawberry Fields Forever. Sing the song and you will know what I mean - .

Now, as he mentions abuse is something else. Just report it - certainly bad stuff can be resolved that way if things are inappropriate?  

I am tempted to start a new thread about Singers Showcase that deals with it's reality, and whether it is rewarding. If so in what way? If everyone just comments with warm fuzzies all the time then do any of us grow? Are we really doing each other a favor with the Strawberry Fields mentality?

I kind of wonder if Stephen and  Michael are correct and a more serious level SS is really needed leaving the old SS as a posh field of play where the recreational, and just for fun roam. I believe that may be part of the problem that two types of artist are clashing the serious and non-serious. On the other hand, rude and lude behavior is just abuse and shouldn't be part of this discussion. It should be reported to Admin.

On a slightly different note....I also fail to see the problem with the current SS setup in regarding that people want to modify it and why they are wanting to. If you don't want to be critiqued then don't choose 'C' and keep it informal. If you don't want to be ranked then don't select rank. If you don't want comments, then isn't there a JFF option? Maybe I am missing something here in the details?

_________________
The Truth Is Out There

Another good point Bill.  Singer's Showcase has molded it's own reality to suit it's purpose (meaning the majority).  THey have redefined the term "Critique" and made the term into something they can stomach, and they also have their own subjective ranking scale that differs from "conventional singing and musician competition" scales.  It's a unique place but it's no small scale example of what real competition and artistic level judging is about.  Whether we call Singer's Showcase a fantasyland,  fantasylands are still a TYPE of real for those really emersed in fantasy..  So Singer's SHowcase is IT'
S OWN place, unlike many other places, but LIKE many competitions in the arts on the internet where people have a main objective to "be friendly and get along" it's a nice fun place.. and THAT is all that the actual objective is.  It's not "real" in the sense of "real musicianship and ability determining ones rank".

It is it's own league, with it's own circumscribed rules.  Whether it is going to allow any big-league player within it's league to compete with other big-league players is doubtful,  hence this is the problem..

Little league, and tripe-A ball often will impede one-another if on the same team.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven I have a question for you.
If, as you say, a seperate forum is created for  the "serious" singers so as they can obtain "serious" feedback and critique, how are you going to qualify who is serious and who isnt? How are you going to qualify them before they come through the door?
Who is going to judge a person on whether they are "serious" enough about their art to gain entry.
And once you have qualified an applicant and found them wanting...in what non-fluff way will you tell them they dont get thru the front door?

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Steven, really. I think you need to lay off the *SS hatred* for a bit.
My gosh, how often do you LISTEN or COMMENT in there anyhow? You don't sub, you have sworn you never will. You say the majority of us are liars and underachievers with no talent. So why do you even WORRY about it? It seems to bug you to no end that YOU don't agree with the comments and ranks given. I don't always agree with them either, but it's not up to ME to sit in these threads and bash everyone in there that they can't sing, and aren't qualified to "critique properly" and that they're all a bunch of fluff.  So the numbers aren't always accurate, cry me a river. That does NOT mean it isn't still a good place to come and have fun sharing songs. You speak nothing but "me, me, me". Why don't you look at the bigger picture and not be so selfish?...... What do SS members want, the active ones, and are they satisfied with the way things are going. It appears to me that folks in there are having a hell of alot of fun, which is what they joined to do. The only time there (usually) gets to be a big upset is when someone takes it upon themselves that they are going to "reform" the showcase. And it's generally (you, Listener X, Eagle....) people who will NOT join in the fun there anyhow. I mean, if someone does NOT ever sub, and will ONLY listen and comment to subs listed under "C"... what are they really there for? Surely not the enjoyement of the site.



That is a rude cut-low to most everyone who participates in there. It is NOT a fantasyland, no more than a karaoke bar is. Steven, it's KARAOKE.



It is very real, to alot of people. One or two folks can't come in there thinking they are god's ears for the singers and set down rules of what the singers should and should not do. We all pay our own memberships here (well, some of us do) and it is up to EACH individual to decide what they want from this place.



That doesn't even make sense. What the hell are you calling a "big leaguer"? Because in the world of karaoke, there ARE alot of big league players in there. SS has some AWESOME talent, you can't deny that. And they are JUST as welcome in there as the people who generally can't carry a tune.

Some of your arguments stink. Actually, they are not arguments. They are a literal bashing of the SS members.  I can't handle reading all this hype. Leave people alone... let the numbers be true or false... who cares? Listen to who you want, don't worry about the senseless, non-professional ones if you don't care to. But don't try to elevate yourself by bashing, it's uncouth. If we get an option to delete what comments we don't want up for public display, then even the pickiest  subber should be satisfied. Take your listen, leave your comment and rank... and be done. If people would quit the "YOU don't deserve a 10, so I'm gonna spout off about it".... alot of this would cease.

.

I'm not Stephen, but here are a few ideas that may or may not work for a more serious minded SS area:

1) Rules of use are different and that is explained up front with a guidelines and requirements document about how to use the forum and about expectations within it.
2) Singers will expect (it is required) that if a submission is made here it will be looked at critically and seriously by anyone reviewing it and any comments made.
3) People will expect to almost never get a 10 - which would be a 'Walks on water' grade.
4) Critics will be required to discuss various techical elements of the piece and how the singer excuted it, and how well. Did they screw up different parts, go flat, weren't smooth, off key at this junction, etc, etc, etc.
5) Bad elements will be required to be discussed along with any good elements.
6) Any ranking would be contingent upon the technical breakdown and overall effect, style, and impression. There should probably a list of rules that help to describe a rank based upon the quality of execution of the song.
7) People would have to understand that there are probably different reviewers with each song with different personal interpretations regardless of how standardized it is attempted to be made.
8 ) People would have to agree not to freak out and try and be retaliatory because it is all for learning experience and growth anyway. Constructive criticism is never all positive so people should expect that. As a matter of fact people should be highly critical of any songs that are getting exceedingly high marks and perfect scores. It might be a good idea in that case that such songs be required to have another impartial group of volunteers review the song to allow the song to stay a 10. - This was just a thought.

I will say Morgan that I'm not sure how you will eliminate cliques of friends just granting blanket good praise. Ideas? Everyone will be required to list suggestions, and note any problems.

This SS version would be a tool for learning and growth and not just for fun.

Scoring should be done based on consideration of the best and worst talent across the country or world:

1 or 2  - if you are really bad with many many flaws
5 - might be if you are reasonably able to sing and somewhat technically adept
7 - Have an entertaining ability. Much fewer flaws. Some enjoyable qualities
10 - Walks on water. Capable of selling millions of records and becoming a legend in       real life.

This whole concept of a more serious SS is interesting but I don't know if it could ever work. I'm also not sure how much of a demand there is for it, although I would think everyone would like a realistic type critique if that were possible and would like to get suggestions for improvement to grow, or to learn if they are completely hopeless and wasting there time unless JFF.

_________________
The Truth Is Out There

all of that is great Bill, you are a logical thinker and a fair minded person and I like and respect you for that and many other things.
Call it crystal ball gazing if you like but I see this little proposition as being a mine field.
I know of at least 2 people who sub under C at present who are in their own minds VERY serious about what they do, yet is their lack of ability going to preclude their entry into this "club"? If it does, who sits on the selection panel?
If talent or lack thereof doesnt preclude entry then is someone REALLY going to come out and tell them they suck? If so how do you manage to get that message across without crushing someones spirit.
These are the questions I want answers to.

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Vicki, you just spoke EXACTLY what I have been thinking about this "seperate area for the more serious subber".

WHO is gonna designate who is allowed in there? Maybe I want to sub in the new area, what will they think of THAT? Me, one of the JFF people. Will I be allowed? Who will tell me I'm not?

It would end up being all the same... pretty soon we'd have threads about "So & so doesn't belong in the *all new & improved serious only SS club*... they are terrible & wish to be fluffed, and they are fluffing other people". It would start a whole new round of this junk, for crise sake.... then we'd have TWO singing sites to bytch about.

It would pretty much be the same dang thing we have now. We have the option of C or JFF... seperate it into 2 sites, it's STILL gonna be the same options.  LOL  That is NOT an answer.

I do agree, a few guidelines, much like you have when you judge a contest... would help.
*What did you enjoy most about the performance?
*Where do you think the singer needs the most work on this particular song?
*Was there anything you didn't enjoy about it?
(and just for fun)...
*If YOU sounded like this, would YOU have subbed this song?

(totally kidding on the last one, people)

I don't mean, literally, those exact words. But, having a structured critique box, with guided questions to answer... might help. But, personally, I just wish it would get decided and be over, and if any changes are coming, I wish they'd happen pronto.... then we can ALL just.... go back to singing.

.

Good questions Morgan. Let me start by saying that first off I am not necessarily committed to this idea. I'm still trying to decide myself if it's a good one, and if it can really be implemented, and work. I think we will have to see if people like this concept. Perhaps a poll....  LMAO  LMAO  LMAO  :D  :rotflmao:

With that said, there are probably lots of opportunities for problems and pitfalls. I was thinking though there wouldn't be a selection committee. Anyone could participate if they are subbing songs, but they have to follow the guidelines I mentioned. Telling someone they suck?  LMAO Yeah that will always potentially be a problem, but under this setup I guess we would all just have to live with it. Perhaps the whole concept is crazy and I just need a reality check. I dunno.... Could be good if enough people want this type of thing and are willing to risk. Maybe it would be like the Gong Show!

_________________
The Truth Is Out There

As I've stated,  I don't agree with you, and if you wish to take my opinions regarding the showcase personally *THAT* is also your choice.  If you consider what I have state "hatred" that's your own interpretation. I firmly feel that it IS a fantasy forum assuming people believe 9 and 10 ranks after 40 submissions to be factual representation of singing ability, some do, I don't lose sleep over it, but I have every right to mention it when the topic of "how real" the showcase is comes up. I also never stated there's anything wrong with that, if most want the showcase as it exists; SOME would like another option, and that's what I've also brought up. I've agreed if people want it as is, that's how it should be (whether it works for me or not).  I stated it's not for me.. I don't need you dissecting and contorting my phrases to formulate opinions such as "hate", "bashing" etc, those are exaggerations based on your own perception.  I've told NOBODY that they are wrong for being in the showcase, I have stated there are problems however, Real Critiquing has been met with opposition, Rank is not accurate,  Does this cause me great umbrage ?  Heck no, but I'm free to comment on these aspects. THAT is my right as well !  Your accusations of "bashing" and "Hate" are baseless.  I feel no need to justify what I believe to be fact to you, nor am I interested in your lashing out and taking my opinion on the showcase as a personal affront. My comments aren't directed towards you personally.  If you think the ranking IS accurate and everybody is a 9 or 10, that's fine too, that is what I was referring to, that and the difficulty MOST have encountered when attempting to leave ACTUAL Critiques.  I believe those that THINK they are actually 9's and 10's aren't  perceiving things as "real", but I also stated fantasy IS FINE.  It's not what I would want, but I WILL mention, and continue mentioning JUST how I feel despite your attacks regarding my opinions of the current Rank and Critique layout. You are free to read or ignore my opinions.  As you are to take my comments as a personal attack (something they aren't)

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

yep which was one of the things Luly and others have been working so hard to try to achieve

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Vicki,  I mentioned rough ideas regarding this a few days back, but it will certainly take some thinking about, and exchanging ideas with those who form the site, a rough concept would be viewing a site such as Muses Muse where actual Critiquing does work, but it's NOT a free-for-all, the site IS moderated by several who started it. THIS site would have to be moderated by a few who form it, another concern is the Critiquing itself being dumped on one two or three people,  assuming this to be the case, the site can't work.  One possibility for determining entry *might* be based upon possibly 10 past viewable interactions an entrant would have within the Singer's Showcase, of which five would be how even slight criticism (since actual critique is seldom seen there) has been handled, etc.  Just based upon interactions that current members would be able to observe.  I have this posted someplace.  Criteria for being in the site, as well as description of Critiquing would exist in the site description, the dictionary definition of Critique WOULD be allowed in this site, People who can't deal with that would NOT belong in such a site... A person would have to be willing to be able to take at last viewing others being critiqued.   We DID have a thread in here awhile back where actual critiquing transpired and it worked... ONLY those who wanted actual Critique participated.  THere were no problems.... Except for lack of those available to Critique !  That takes time !  Actual critiquing is a positive experience.  It just requires the shedding of some ego which is TOUGH.. Being able to do-so would be requisite.  Some of the people in here already know who can and can not deal with this type situation.



You are taking my statements out've context and twisting them.  I stated it's up to individuals to get what they WANT from this place, UNFORTUNEATELY some who've wished for REAL Critique have been chastised.  I have no clue who listener X, eagle, etc are... I do know however what has, and has not worked in Singer's Showcase, and I'm not alone in believing REAL critiquing (for ONLY those that opt for it) hasn't done well in the SS so "Individuals" that wish for it have often NOT gotten what they want and have a right to "from this place".  As to hate, bashing, etc...  direct those  absurd distortions of what I've stated elsewhere, I'm trying to help form OPTIONS for those that aren't happy in the Showcase, SOME are not happy in the showcase for reasons stated.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I'm not "accusing"... I'm not "lashing out" at you. I'm simply stating my own opinions. That is the way I see things, what I stated above.

I did state (perhaps it was a different thread) that I feel the whole of SS is being attacked, but that I have NOT felt they were directed towards me. I don't take it personally, though when lumped all together, me being a JFF subber... it seems typical that I would, as would ALL JFF subbers. But, again, I'm NOT taking it personally.

I just don't think all that's being said is fair to SS as a whole. I would NEVER bash someone for critiquing me, no matter how harshly they did so. I'd take it with a grain of salt, nor would I join in a bashing game of someone who was honestly trying to critique. I told you, there have been times I have SEEN good honest critique squashed by well meaning friends... and it does a disservice to the one who needed to hear said critique. But... I WONT lump everyone in there together and say "the critique on SS in nothing but a joke, it's a fantasyland in there". To some, yes, to others... no.

These issues will never be agreed upon. Ever. That's why I say... to each his own. Stay away from what bothers you, cause no matter WHAT changes may come, they will always be some kind of unrest here.

Steven, WHY don't you jump in there and give critique once in a while? Old habits are hard to break... but once it's started, yeah, you'll get some tongue lashing I imagine, but it will die down. If true critique is given (and sometimes it is) the ones LISTENING will have to admit on the inside that it was honest, even though it may take them a bit of time to stand up and say "I agree". I ASKED my friend Don once to give HONEST feedback on my songs. The way SS is, he thought he'd get people mad at him, Lmao. But still, he took a "baby step" towards giving me negative remarks once. (only once... then he quit, haha) But, it was my hope that in seeing it, others would maybe accept it when I did NOT lash out, and feel freer to be a bit more honest. I DO feel we need more honesty... I just wont shake my head in disgust about it all. People in there seem happy with the way things are, then... Who am I to tell them they're going about it all wrong? Better a little fluff and lots of fun than this bickering between everyone.

I told ya, I'm astraddle the fence on this issue. I'd like to see honest critiques be given and taken... but, then again, who am I to say what someome is stating is THEIR honest opinion or not? I admit, when I see one of the better performers give a fluff comment on a truly bad singing job, I know they are just being kind. To be honest, there are a couple singers in SS who get alot of comments, and always very very good remarks... and I can NOT tolerate their singing at all. One, is a voice that I just can't stomach. Another sounds like their not even singing, but faking it (i can't word it right, but say you were "making fun" of a high pitched girlie voice to make people laugh.. THIS is what that person reminds me of) BUT... it's just my opinion, so I can't knock the people who give the grand comments and listen to this person time and again. Maybe... a popularity contest. (listen to the popular singers... and I'll be in the popular crowd) Maybe not, maybe they truly like it.

So, I don't generalize.  I just know that my opinions don't always equal that of others.

Again, Steven, I did NOT take anything you said as directed towards me. I was more speaking out for SS as a whole. Alot of them do NOT come here, and alot of them would not think all that is being said here is right.

But, I'm done with it. I don't wish to be in the middle of this, so please... pass by my post. You know me well enough to know, I'll HAVE to come back here if addressed... but I really don't wish to turn this into a verbal war, I've no desire to.
(pistol laid down... not that there was one, but I guess you thought so)




.

I have,  go read Crooners Critique  "La La means".  I have commented on a few individuals too.  I don't dislike the Showcase, I have NO problems with :fluff:, and have NOT been one to lash at that aspect of the showcase.  I do feel those that wish to actually give and receive "CRITIQUE" have had, and will continue to have a very tough time there.  I know how to give Critiques, and it's a tough process.. Thing is few really want them, and that is what I've stated as well..  Most that sub under "C" DO NOT want an actual Critique and THAT is what frustrates me about the current setup,  those attempting to give Critiques (to members they believed could handle a Critique based upon their own request) HAVE been bashed, and THAT is sad. I feel Singers SHowcase AS IT IS can exist ADJUNCT with a more serious area for those that wish for TRUE Critique, which as you know is VERY tough for all to take. I don't feel it makes sense to change anything regarding SS as it currently exists, because I do feel the majority of the members have formed the site to be a fun place for them... That's all I stated, and I maintain that. I don't view fun place and fantasylands as negative, or bad... Disneyworld and places such as that are a blast, we all have strong inner-children that DO crave 9's and 10's... BUT some don't want that, some feel that IS NOT real world, and would like something more realistic... SOME want something different, they too can have it but likely NOT in the current SS.

This is what I have been hoping for, something for ALL of us..

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

ALL this would take Charmin is compromise on BOTH parts... a Live and let live attitude in the SHowcase.   That has been tough to attain thus-far.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Besides, which, even if the person ASKS for a critique and they get just that, there's a risk this may turn into an "ordeal", mentally and emotionally scar them, and something they may have to carry inside for the rest of their lives and in return make society very unhappy in return.  

Best to keep comments restricted to something like "Wooooooooohooooo sounding good in Peoria......really love this" (paraphrased but more or less found on 9 submissions today) on nearly every submission that appears on the board regardless of quality and ensure getting tons of comments on your submission in return!    

(I read all this in the Parker Brothers instructions on how to play that came with this thing)

*told ya so*
Okay, so I'm back. I'm toggling between here and listening... trying to stay mostly out of here, but can't seem to:)



So, that's what I said. They ask for a C, so GIVE it to them.

What makes it hard is

A: Yes, some do NOT want real critique, this I know, as does everyone here
B: Some ARE scared to be honest, mostly I think for fear of "retaliation"
C: Those who give it *sometimes* are being brats because of a personal dislike- or jealousy- or past fueding- and it causes an uproar
D: Most ALL "real critiquers" get bashed, mainly I THINK, because of past issues with sniping. They take ANYthing harsh as a personal attack.

How to handle it? Who the hell knows... if we did, we wouldn't be here discussing it. But, like I said... baby steps may improve it. I was applauding Listener X, until it started to look like "a friend of a friend" type situation. Some of the critiques were ignorant, after the first few were given. That blew that persons image for me. And it sets a pattern... for people to not like or trust those that "pop in" all of a sudden to critique.

No, you DON'T know who "really wants a critique"..... but there's only one way to find out. And, after all, if they're asking.... they're asking.

Hell, maybe I'll go back to asking myself, and see if anything has changed for me personally in the 2 years I've been JFF. I bet not though... But, as I stated before, I'm here for the enjoyment of it. For me to sub C would be to "prove a point" only, and that would be dumb.

.

Yes, I know. But, again, it has to START somewhere.

So who, of the regular SS & KS people... who are not "shadow in the night critiquers"... are willing to start laying it on the line? Not many are tough enough to do so:)

You stated you know some don't want it. Honest question, NOT meant to belittle you in ANY way.... are you, yourself, afeared of people bashing you if you critique a C sub where it was not truly wanted? Honestly... If it's C, why don't you?

.

up above speaks the "man" who put the w back in anchor

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."