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Well we could take a poll to see just what amount of voting participation is needed to constitute a valid election.  But it'd be just the luck that not enough people would vote on the poll concerning just how many people need to vote in polls!!  LOL

But Steven, nobody is stoping all of us from having a say?  LOL  I don't know where you're getting this idea of deliberate exclusion from?

Perhaps we should make it a representative republic Steven?

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The Truth Is Out There

I think it's a great idea Steven. That would give everyone an area just for fun where people can post informal, fun stuff, and another area for serious submissions. I would expect serious subs wouldn't be as active or popular by an means. People would take much more time and polish before submitting, and they would only do it when they were ready to get gonged, and called out on their obvious mistakes. Then again, there would be those that didn't get a lot of bad criticism and some that people even rave about as it should be.  :oh yeah:

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The Truth Is Out There

Then again ( I forgot to mention) there are probably so few people that want that it would never pass, or get implemented.

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The Truth Is Out There

It's only "deliberate exclusion" if what I stated in my earlier posts regarding this is how enough of those silent currently feel as well.  And my guess is a percentage agree with this.



A few others have mentioned this as well,  and now Bill is mentioning it as well !   What I stated was shot down earlier regarding this. Those that are impatient, and rushing this selfishly ARE doing-so at the expense of excluding OTHERS if you do not have enough of a vote on this and what constitutes that has been mentioned many times

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

They have ways to keep that from happening  :shock:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Have nothing really to add except that I dont believe these polls are excluding ANYONE myself...Theyve been talked to death, argued to death & promoted to  death with these threads, emails, even on SS in form of an invitation to vote sub from Luly...If someone is excluded its because they dont care or are not on here enough to really form an opinion... In that case, like you stated Steven, "But I do know silence does not constitute a vote either way in such a situation" So I believe they should just go with the percentages that DID vote not the percentages that didnt care or for whatever reason didnt vote...I believe everyone has had ample time for this thing & I also agree with Odie when he says "We've been discussing these assorted SS issues for months.  I don't really think taking some kind of a vote now is really being "in a Hurry for change".  Do we want to keep arguing and discussing all this for the rest of the year?   "  Lets get this done & move on already. Im unclear on why we need another vote though...I guess a "final" vote is what it amounts to...It was hard enough to get people to vote this time!

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

The thing is...all these issues are ongoing and have been for a lonnnnng time.  I don't know what became of the idea of sending mass emails, but I agree that every member should be notified.  And a DEFINITE end time needs to be determined.

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Kelley, and Luly,


  True,  these issues have been ongoing (AT LEAST for my 2 years regarding the EXACT same issues- just different individuals in the past, but as you state this is no revelation). HOWEVER during a past similar discussion (before this really got kicked and kicked to the point many became totally fed up over the same situation replaying itself) there was in fact a discussion where a few of the now silent folk in SS came over and discussed this..I won't give names, but if any have a good memory, they will recall this.. I was debating with one such individual who I have great respect for. In this particular case the "said individual" exclaimed, "Not only does Critique work in SS, but what you see is an accurate representation of "talent" !   People give numbers THEY want to give for whatever reason, it's fair...Others claimed what I'm repeating, meaning it isn't *MY own* original supposition that "The system is fine, a few of you need to take some time off, and chill..It's supposed to be fun here", and THAT was how more than 1/2 of the relatively few (of the now silent majority) contributed 2 years ago (I was VERY new at that time).  Some other comments from them, and ONE possible reason some are deliberately ignoring this is that unfortuneately quite a few feel, "Will you drama queens give it a break, the system is fine, why must everything be a soap opera for a few of you" ?  (NOT MY OWN WORDS btw)... Many are REALLY sick of this happening everytime "a few" stir up..  and feel this is normal given the closely-knit parties and the current setup,  It's the nature of the "Critique" beast... and people should take time off or sub in L and just chill... or "get over this stuff" and regain perspective.


Keeping this in mind, ( that my statements are NOT my own heartfelt plea regarding this issue).  I am trying to be the voice of some objectivity now, having been thru this same exact situation every other month in here.  If given my own choice, the term Critique would've been removed 2 years ago.  However I don't believe AT ALL that the several in here involved in current altercation and fallout from a few not getting along in SS is a fair representation or microcosm of Singers Showcase mindset AT ALL...  I believe many are fed up with people that can't get along in a site THEY like as-is.  It's my own feeling that some are saying  "Here we go again".

One such feature I pushed thru a few years back was to close off comments and critique to the outside world to view, keeping that aspect private among members in hopes of trying to cut down on the Critiquer and commenting parties alike trying to get a disproportionate amount of attention showing off in the boxes.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I understand your objectivity Steven, Its good we have that here... & I also understand the people that are saying "here we go again" but I challenge any one of them to be in a conflict & see if they wouldnt like some changes too.. Maybe some have & while they may have gotten thru it & are ok now Im sure they were asking themselves why things happen the way they do here in the middle of "their" ordeal..I'd almost guarantee that fact. Or maybe some have asked, like myself, why arent people held accountable for their actions here?? Is the ban button that is available the ONLY souce of "help" we have here ?? The only way that helps from what I understand is if they get "ban buttoned" 5 times??? So thats really not "help"  ( I have NEVER pushed the ban button on anyone here BTW ) Like I mentioned I "tried" a few different ways to resolve conflict myself to no avail. I dont have a prob with critique too much myself. I dont sub under "C" (unless its a mistake , I finally figured out why THAT was happening BTW, It was uploading from AOL instaed of explorer) And I very very rarely critique anyone else. (If I do its not a long drawn out assesment of every little note its just a maybe the music shoulda been louder kinda thing) What I do have a problem with is constant abusive  ( belittling(SP?), accusing, "I'm better than you") kind of people that forget that this site is a KARAOKE site not for pros (or JUST pros if you wanna say that ) Its for people who enjoy singing no matter what their "talent" level...Thats all.

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

I am emailing admin to ask if they can send a mass email to EVERY SS MEMBER for their vote.  Steven, what do you feel would be an appropriate length of time to keep voting open?

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Luly and Kelley,


  Here's what I propose.. People personally attempt to get others in here that they don't know well, and don't frequently chat with, both old and new members alike.. and ask them if they will contribute their feelings about this and have MORE active singers that aren't discussing this come in here and discuss this, but in exchange we CAN'T debate them or challenge their perspective, it should be respected..Hear what they wish to say, I too can attempt to get a few to contribute to this discussion, it just shouldn't become controversial.. recruit people to discuss their views on this discussion on the matter without emotional stuff ensuing, with a fair cross section of SS... You might very well find that these polls are useless because few want or feel a need for change... THAT would've been the first step...  we did this before... I can PM somebody who I don't really know who seems to be having a good time in SS,  you can PM others you don't know well and ask them to contribute their feelings about this, and ask others...I don't know how long this should be left up,  for all to get a fair chance to see it, I'd be inclined to think around 2 months (BUT I have no clue), because there might be other reasons people are deliberately tuning it out.. As I've said, this is reality, and SS is more like fantasyland.. WHen reality knocks, some won't open the door  LOL .  Yes, a few months sounds ridiculously long to some of you, but the reality is.. Some people take breaks, but are still valued members.. (just because we don't take breaks doesn't mean we are the "standard" of what valuable member is )..  Best thing to do since this is just a dry run prior to administration even considering changes.. is get some that aren't talking about this IN HERE to represent themselves (like Bill did),  and prior to that (gosh, I forgot who I was talking to about harmony theory, is he still around ? Was it RUSS who likes SS as is, HE might be the guy I'm thinking of ??)   anyway, bring in some in the showcase to discuss this, recruit OUTSIDE the circle..


JMO...


as to how much time this should be given ?    Let a joint collaboration of members input in the showcase determine this as well.. I'm not qualified to give a precise time-span not knowing the lifestyles of the members. You can't get something like this with such a large group done quickly.  What I believe can happen quickly is the formation of a more serious critiquing room,  that wouldn't affect the current status of Singers Showcase however.


ADDED IN:

I think administration will set the reasonable amount of time aspect anyway.  So let them make this determination.  THAT would be THEIR call.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

All,

  Regarding "abuse".  NOBODY should have to tolerate being "abused".  While I can't speak for the mods or administration, I do know in the TOS description it's not allowed.  Regardless of changes made, or not made in the Showcase venue, if you are being abused by anybody, anytime SEND the content to administration, or the mods.. or both..  NOBODY should have to tolerate being at the receiving end of abuse on this site.  I'm sure administration wouldn't disagree with this.  This should be addressed OUTSIDE the issue of format change, because abuse isn't a problem having to do with current format, it's simply not allowed currently under any condition.  We've been given leeway to work stuff out on our own.  "Abuse" however falls into a different category. It's NOT PERMITTED.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven, how were you able to accomplish the change that you pushed through and feel assured that this is what the majority of SS members wanted?  Just curious to know how it used to be done.

"One such feature I pushed thru a few years back was to close off comments and critique to the outside world to view, keeping that aspect private among members in hopes of trying to cut down on the Critiquer and commenting parties alike trying to get a disproportionate amount of attention showing off in the boxes."

In THAT particular case there were other circumstances involved. A larger portion of the showcase discussed it, and when I say "pushed it through", a better phrasing would've been that I came up with the idea and most agreed as did Phill at that time. It was more involved but also the argument for implementing it was more compelling as to why that particular situation shouldn't be (Critique and comments available to whole world).  Remember NOT everything needs to go to poll, in actuality NOTHING does. But if necessary let the administration decide there needs to be a poll. If an idea is something feasible ADMINISTRATION or mods will initiate the poll, or make the switch regardless. I don't think you folks did this systematically.  You started polls up immediately, and the polls weren't well constructed.  You had about 3 or 4 going at once.. I personally think that's goofy, and to be honest it appeared babyish.  You think first,  get EVERYTHING organized in such a way that it's ready to be presented.  This includes approval first of what administration is willing to change. Only after that you create a POLL assuming that is what needs to be done to implement change.  If there are too many goofy poorly constructed polls in simultaneous threads people will get even MORE sick of these bboards, and calls for change become as affective as "Crying wolf" you cheapen everything.


1)  Have a discussion among as large a group as possible reaching conclusion FIRST

2)  Have a spokesperson for group write short letter to administration and mods
     discussing proposal, those who concur can have their names on submitted letter

3)  Phill or administration assuming they feel there is compelling cause will intervene
    and either make changes, or if poll is appropriate THEY will worry about that.  or
    in some cases do nothing.

Remember, pending any outcome of this poll NO changes might be made, so why you folks are doing things &@@-backwards I haven't a clue.  Ask administration first WHY they decided on the three categories ?  Has anybody done that ?  How do they feel about the layout, and what is it's objective ?  Not generically  "Are you willing to make changes if enough want them", but specifically find out about the changes you wish to make.. Some might know more than us about this.  Some might know that administration will not change site layout...Did you ask specifically what they are willing to modify regarding site layout ?  Do research first....  Only than poll and that's up to THEM, not you regarding this.. They might push a point thru based solely on how poignant the issue is.


You folks are having way too much fun with the "everybody can have a poll" concept, and it cheapens your points when there truly is a problem and you need a poll.


JMO...

Let administration write the poll,  YOU FOLKS just recruit a cross-section of SS to discuss how many feel as you do across the spectrum.   Otherwise all this is is venting..  If the problem in SS is that people feel abuse is taking place, and not moderated THAT is an issue within itself.  Not up to members to worry about how to deal with that.. If there is site abuse going on TELL those that can do something about it...Somethings are tough to ignore for all.  Abuse as I stated IS NOT allowed. Administration has a right to know that you are being abused within Singer's Showcase.  Address THAT first !  Just make certain it is "abuse" and you can substantiate it as such.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Point taken Steven, but because alot of the "abuse" STARTS in SS thru comments... I believe by implementing a few of these ideas WILL HELP with some of the "abuse" thats going on IMO...

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

Right Kelley, but change or no change abuse is not allowed !  That is certainly a priority to address that involves NO vote or poll.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

There's another aspect of this.

I was a tenacious internet fighter and warrier when I first got my internet accounts, and as a result lost quite a few America Online accounts learning about the ways of the internet   .  But I've learned a thing or two since..  and now I'm in good standing over there. I've mellowed and gotten it out've my system.

THIS site allows quite a bit of freedoms to members on these bboards to hash out probs among themselves.  It even allows SO much leeway that it allows site members to "have it out".  

Problem here is.  When you opt to fight a person, you don't get to pick the fighting style. Fight's online ARE dirty.  For this very reason I never try to give TOO much personal info that will later get thrown in my face.  Reality is what I say now CAN, and will be used against me in a brawl of disorder 4 years from now..

Point being.  In allowing such freedoms,  and allowing members to try to do what they need to do to settle issues among themselves, in the internet a very common form of fighting is "No holds barred".

Keep that in mind !

Confrontation can be unfavorable.  This is why ignore is sometimes the best option HOWEVER when you confront a person, and a battle ensues, and many are involved.. It almost always gets ugly !

Abuse takes place in this sense of course because it's part of the fighting process.  Is this right ?   Not saying it is.. It's no holds barred fighting.  I think THIS is what the problem has been on these bboards.  I addressed how ugly things were starting to look in terms of ongoing diatribe,  as did CCindy, and others.   Perhaps a moderator or two should deal with SS altercations in private and talk to both parties.  Just a thought.. Assuming there is real friction THIS needs to be brought up to mods and administration, some are just letting SS function harmoniously not aware of little things going on.  There might be problems if what a person feels to be abusive retort is construed as "tit for tat" exchange in the eyes of some. Inuendo can dig VERY deep, but it's a form of dirty fighting many use and can get away with


Food for thought.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven you added some onto your post as I was in the middle of responding ....

I HOPE you werent referring to my telling about my car crash & what ensued after b/c that IS NOT what I was SOO upset about with my ordeal...I am used to the fact & "feeling" of being judged for that. Its PART OF ME...If you'll go back & look the only thing "I" said about that was "such the adult".Everyone else took offense to it a little more than I did.( & I thanked everyone for being human & having decency) I wont say it didnt hurt b/c it always does, Im human, but no I wasnt "offended" by it. So no I dont regret posting about it here. IF it helped ONE person think ONE time about drinking & driving it was worth it. I know you might not have even been talking about that but I did want to clear the air on that anyways.

As for ignoring...PFFT that sh** dont work !!! I have been ignoring a certain someone & they continue to think they can just pop over to my sub & give a "nice constructive little comment" (BS, a dig more like it)  when I asked them publicly AND in a pm to stay away from mine & Id give them the same respect..Some people make it IMPOSSIBLE to ignore them. They are ALWAYS gonna be in your face no matter what. They THRIVE on attention. Guess THATS the fact I'll have to get used to...NOT !!!  

I agree 100% that admin or site authority SHOULD have done something about what happened in my ordeal ( I'll keep my opinion as to what to myself)
I have found a few people here that have mastered the art of inuendo myself. Like thats what they do for a living or something. Its rediculous !!

SORRY...A BIT OFF TOPIC I KNOW!

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]