Karaoke Forums

You Guys Rock!! Thanks for the advice so far. I bought my player (RSQ 505G) and a Mackie DFX12 mixer. I went with the Mackie because I do have a Casio MZ2000 Keyboard, and my father has some instruments to plug in and screw around with. I thought it would be cool to use a nicer mixer and see how things could sound (if we were actually any good at playing instruments). From everyone's recommendations, I just got my Shure sm58 Mics and the sound is great....through my Sony Headphones. Now it's time to turn it up. I'm not a tekkie so I don't know what is the best.

I know that there are powered speakers (which I guess don't need an amp) or I can get an amp and speakers. I would probably want 15" woofers because from what I read on the site, the bigger the woofer, the better the sound. But I also read that some manufacturers don't have the best sound, so size doesn't dictate quality. (It's not the size of the boat, it's the motion of the ocean) I don't know which brands are best. I don't want to just go in to a dealer and take their advice. The dealer that I was at only had Sound Tec and Gemini. They said that they are good, but if I go to a Ford dealer, they won't talk me into a Chevy. I have heard good and bad about Carvin and Peavey, as wel as Yamaha and Pioneer being adequate. So:

1: Powered speakers or amp and speakers?
2: Brand/size?
3: How much umpf do I need to rock the place (the size of a typical tavern)

Thanks in advance. And again......You Guys Rock

Powered or not, there are several good options for you. I'll give you my $.02 based on my experience. I use JBL powered Eon 15s and like 'em much. The Mackies (12") are nice too, they cost just a little more, but are very popular - our football league uses them for announcements and music and the kick. I know some folks that bought the unpowered Yamaha S115IVS (15") - good value as well (my musiciansfriend.com catalog has them down to $250 each). You would need an amp with them, and from what I hear, look closely at the Carvin line (calling Lonman...). However you go, be sure to have at least one sub; it will make a difference even in smaller joints. For a monitor, I recommend the Fender 1270P (powered) - they have an unpowered one too if you go the amp route. Nice little unit.

I've worked for some companies using other lower end "DJ" brands and would not recommend them.

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Sounds Great! Entertainment
Bartlett, Illinois

Sound tech arent bad speakers. whatever you do shop the internet first. then when you know what the prices should be go to a music shop and make them match your best price, and they will. otherwise you are going to pay too much. some of my kj buddies have paid twice what I have for the same equipt. I prefer peavey amps & speakers. they make a good product and stand behind it. if you blow a sub, you can just replace the basket, not the whole speaker. saves lots of bucks on replacement.

Doc
Like you I will agree ..Great information from this site and it's members.

You will get personal preference when it comes to POWERED SPEAKERS vs SPEAKERS AND AMP. One thing in common is most will suggest to stay away from the lower end MFG when it comes to amps and speakers. It seems you decided on 15" speakers which is a good choice. NOw decide on how much power you want or NEED now or in the future. The names you mentioned are all good. PEAVEY -CARVIN - CROWN -amps PEAVEY , CARVIN YAMAHA -JBL- MACKIE SPEAKERS MIXERS ETC. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these mfg's when it comes to pro sound equipment. Look through some of the other threads at KS and you will see discussions on powered vs non powered and various speaker combos etc. Good luck !

For powered speakers the Yorkville NX520s. They have 550 watts, under 40 lbs. We've been so impressed and out of curiosity contacted Yorkville to see if they were going to produce 15" versions (these are 12") and they said (and we agreed) that the 12s sound better than 15s that are already out there and they had no plans to produce 15s.

Hey Doc,
I also went with a Mackie (808S) power mixer. I have two 15" Peveys and two 12" Fenders. My thinking behind the mackie was doing an outside party will require more power than an inside tavern. I'm glad I did because our karoke party by the lake was very sucessful.
Beachmasterjam

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Wherever you are is a good place to start

Thaks for the info. It seems that a name brand speaker will be good, no matter which I choose. As for the powered speaker vs. amp/speaker combo, personal preference is the key. There is no prevalent quality difference, or pros or cons that stand out. Correct me if I am wrong...please. How about wattage? Not being an audio tech junkie, I don't really understand what is what. I don't know about wattage or ohms. What combo is good? I want something versatile enough to go outside for a party if needed, as I have read that outside parties may need more umpf, but knowing that I don't plan on playing Yankee Stadium. Assume that money is not an issue, at least not with regards to quality, what is a good wattage/ohm combo to look at? I would gladly spend more to get better quality. I don't want to spend several hundred dollars on good speakers, and later say " I wish I would have spent that extra hundred dollars for these great speakers." Hopefully my questions don't seem too stupid or overdone, but I think the dumbest questions are the ones that you don't ask. I think this forum is full of outstanding info, and what is more, it seems to be unbiased. Hopefully, these "dumb questions" will help more than just me. Thanks again Sammy Soldiers.

THE PV 1500 or the pv2600 peavey both suit me well. I use the 2600 for the main stereo channels out, and the 1500 for the sub. if I ever had a problem with the 2600 not working 5 minutes of changing cablew and the 1500 would take over for the big one. either one would power up to 3 sets of 8 ohm speakers w/15" subs well. I normally run 2 sets with an 18" sub.

I just came across a pair of Carvin 1584 three way cabinets with a 15" woofer and 8" driver and a radial horn. The frequency response is 50 Hz to 19kHz, with a continuous power handling of 400w. Along with this is a carvin 1000 w amp. The price is right, the brand name seems right, but how would these speakers be for karaoke?

Agree..great info here.

Docbob, I am looking for similar type info ( read my thread titled " Speakers for this system " ) and getting confused. Different stores tell me different things. I do seem to hear less pros for Peavey and more for Yorkville, JBL, Mackie etc in the range I am looking at ( $ 400.00 to $ 700.00US for pair ). I agree with you, however, these are something I will have for a long time and would prefer to spend a little more if it makes a huge difference. I have been into good 2 channel home audio and good home theatre for years so I can't stand bad sound. In fact, it is taking me some time to get used to the PA type sound.

I do think a sub is a good idea. I am still confused as to weather to go with powered speakers or use my amp. I have an older Bryston 4B power amp ( 20 years old now ) which are pretty good. New 4B's retail for about $ 2600.00 US. They are 250w speakers and I thought that they would be 500w into 4 ohms..again, one person says one thing and another store says another. Some say that max is 250w...I am not sure if I need more power ?? Debating on if I should keep this or sell it and get powered speakers. I think I will email Bryston tech support and get the true power rating....does anyone know this ?? New specs for 4B are 300w into 8ohms and 500w into 4 ohms.

Also, if I kep my Bryston which is the prefered way to hook up a powered sub..into sub first and out to speakers or line out from mixer ? Also heard that I should split signal so that all I send to main speakers is mid and high...send ALL bass to sub. Thoughts ??

Looking forward to your final purchase and any future advice.

Regards

Colin

Hey Kid, I'm right with ya. I passed on the Carvin setup that I had seen because I decided that there is probably some reason that they are getting rid of it. I think speakers are the one thing that people can use and abuse, and I don't want to buy a lemon. I don't know much about amplifiers, but I know that you can't do much with a bad set of speakers. I decided that used is not the way to go so I went to my local music store and talked to a sales rep. We talked about powered vs. passive speakers. Agian, personal preference prevails. He likes a separate amp because if something goes wrong, it is cheaper, and probably easier to repair or replace. He did say that the argument for powered speakers is that you know you have the right size amp to match the speaker so you might not have to worry about blowing them. He showed me the Peavey line and they looked appealing to me, but I still didn't know how much umpf to get because I don't know what is what. Marty3 uses the JBL eon15s and likes them so I will look at them. The salesman had the JBL line in stock, but since he wasn't a fan of powered speakers, I didn't want to hear too much from him on those. If he doesn't like powered speakers, why should he be the one selling them to me? I want to buy this setup once and be happy. I have read on this forum that a bad buy should be used as a learning experience and move on, but if I can pass on the GED and go right to the PhD with my purchase I would be very happy. I think I have narrowed things down to Peavy or JBL and I will probably buy new (so I have someone to yell at if I don't like things). What wattage should I be looking at?...and what abouth the Ohms?

Howdy DocBob,
I'm getting into this discussion late but I guess I should put my opinion in the mix.

Speaker impedance gets a lot of people confused. Most PA speakers are 8 ohms, with a few being 4 ohms. When you hook up a speaker to an amp you are putting a load on the amp. One 8 ohm speaker on one channel of an amp is an 8 ohm load. So whan you look at an amps specs you would look at what it puts out at 8 ohms. Now if you hooked up two 8 ohm speakers to the same channel of the amp (this is connecting them in parallel if you keep pos to pos and neg to neg) you are effectively halving the load the amp sees and are running that channel at 4 ohms. (Don't ask me why it works that way, I've never understood it myself) So now the amp is putting out more power but it is also working harder. Most professional amps are rated down to a 2 ohm load but I don't like to run at anything less than 4 ohms.

Amp manufacturers normally use a 2 or 4 ohm load to advertise the max power of their amps. I use a Carvin DCM2000, which is advertised to put out 1000 watts per channel at 2 ohms. But if you look at the 8 ohm specs it only puts out 450 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 700 per channel at 4 ohms. So if I run two speakers off it they could each have a max of 450 watts for a total of 900 watts. but if I ran four speakers off it each speaker would be getting a max of 350 watts for a total of 1400 watts. So you see that the specs can be misleading.

My advice would be to buy the biggest amp you can afford. It is better to have the power and not need it than to need it and not have it. On my Carvin amp I usually run two Mackie C300's off one side and a sub off the other. I've never had to turn it up to the point of clipping yet.

I hope this helps you a bit. I'm sure someone else may be able to explain it a little better.

Kobey, You are the man!!!! This is the info that I am looking for. The ohm thing is tough to understand, but I think I understand it much more than before. I should look for an amp that has an 8 ohm power rating to match my speaker rating. Actually, it is better to have a higher wattage rating to give headroom (I think that is what I saw it called) so you get better sound. For example, the sales guy I talked to the other day showed me the Peavey SP2X. This speaker has "Power Handling: 1000 Watts program, 2000 Watts peak" at 8 ohms. First of all, I don't think I need 1000 watts for karaoke but again, I have no idea. But assume that I do...I would need an amp rated at 1000 watts at 8 ohms or 2000 wats at 4 ohms if I put them on the same channel....correct?

My next question is....what the heck does this mean:

500 Watts program/1000 Watts peak power handling

This is from one of the speakers that I saw from Peavey. It is rated at 8 ohms. What size amp would you get for these? Again, I hope I'm not the only idiot confused by these things. Thanks again.

500 watts program means it will take a sustained (average) 500 watts over a long peroid of time. 1000 watts peak means it will "handle" peaks of 1000 watts. which if you are running continuous 500 watts you may be hitting.

OK...starting to get the picture now.

Here is a response from Bryston ( my amp is 20yrs old ) with regards to power etc..

The 4B amplifier is rated at 200 watts into 8 ohms / 400 watts into 4 ohms in the stereo mode ( 2 channel operation). The amplifier is rate at 800 Watts into a minimum 8 ohm load in the bridged / mono mode . Hope this helps you out. If you require any further assistance, please feel free to contact us.

So, based on my situation / equipment ( again, see post titled " Speaker for this system " for further info ) what would be a good speaker and sub recommendation ? Is this amp going to cut it or should I buy powered speakers ? New amp and non powered speakers ?

Really looking for the " If you were me what would you do ? " type of advice.

Thanks

Colin

Personally I dont like integrated components. like powered speakers. If you are running speakers and a a channel blows during a show, you can go mono with the remaining channel with all speakers and finish the show. if you blow an amp in a powered speaker you may have to replace the entire unit, speaker & amp.

I really dont buy into the power ratings on the new equipment. ie: the peavey pv-2600 amp is supposed to be a 2600 watt amp into a 2ohm load. but only has a power consumption of 750 watts. That isnt possible you never get something for nothing. it would have to use a minimum of 2600 watts to acheive full rated output.

I tell anyone buying speakers to listen to them, first...... the check out the power rating buy the best you can afford, but never buy crap at any price it isnt a bargain. if you have to replace something that you got at a great price, then it wasnt all that great a price. try to stick to a name brand. For speakers I prefer jbl & peavey. with peavey on top for sound & quality.

Doc, when people talk about underpowering speakers it can be a bit misleading. You aren't going to hurt speakers by not putting enough power to them. If that was the case, we would be blowing speakers all the time when we have the volume turned down.

The problem comes when you try to get more power out of your amp than it is designed for. The more you turn up an amp the more likely it is to start clipping. When that happens it can overheat your speakers and blow them.

For an example let's say you bought the Peavey SP2's. Now to go along with it you get an amp that puts out 300 watts per channel at 8 ohms. If you were doing a small house party or small bar you probably wouldn't have any problems. It is only when you decide that it isn't loud enough and start redlining the amp to get the volume you want. That is when the clipping and distortion factors come in that could damage your speakers.

As for needing an amp that puts out what your speakers will handle, that isn't really necessary if you have good speakers. You just need an amp that will put out more than you will ever use. I have run bar gigs with just my powered mixer that puts out 125 watts per channel at 8 ohms. I just had to be careful not to push it too far. That's why I bought an external amp, so I would have the extra headroom if I needed it for larger venues or outdoor gigs.

Ok Kobey, Let me get this straight.

1: A 125 Watt amp with a 1000 watt speaker would cause clipping if you cranked up the amp to get volume. This would sound bad due to the clipping, and possibly blow the speaker due to heat from the clipping, even though it is rated to 1000 Watts.

2. Likewise, a 1000 Watt speaker with a 1000 watt amp could clip if you max the amp, thus causing clipping and a blown speaker.

3. A 1000 Watt amp with a 500 Watt Speaker would not clip due to the ability of the amp to put out more wattage than you would most likely need, but if you crank more than 500 watts, you would blow the speaker.


Assuming that I am correct on these three scenarios, it doesn't seem that any setup is absolutely ideal, but the third one would be the best assuming you aren't dumb enough to forget about the ratings and crank it up too high. What happens if someone yells in a mic? Would that blow the speaker even though the amp is not cranked above the speaker rating, or would the wattage be limited by the amp?

Essentially, I am looking for the same thing that Kid wants....If it were you, what would you do? No matter what, I think this discussion is very informative and I have learned a lot. Thanks

Ok Kobey, Let me get this straight.

1: A 125 Watt amp with a 1000 watt speaker would cause clipping if you cranked up the amp to get volume. This would sound bad due to the clipping, and possibly blow the speaker due to heat from the clipping, even though it is rated to 1000 Watts.

2. Likewise, a 1000 Watt speaker with a 1000 watt amp could clip if you max the amp, thus causing clipping and a blown speaker.

3. A 1000 Watt amp with a 500 Watt Speaker would not clip due to the ability of the amp to put out more wattage than you would most likely need, but if you crank more than 500 watts, you would blow the speaker.


Assuming that I am correct on these three scenarios, it doesn't seem that any setup is absolutely ideal, but the third one would be the best assuming you aren't dumb enough to forget about the ratings and crank it up too high. What happens if someone yells in a mic? Would that blow the speaker even though the amp is not cranked above the speaker rating, or would the wattage be limited by the amp?

Essentially, I am looking for the same thing that Kid wants....If it were you, what would you do? No matter what, I think this discussion is very informative and I have learned a lot. Thanks

3. Is the best senario with the amp set at 50%. Someone Yelling into a mic shouldnt blow a speaker. you wouldnt be kicking out high power peaks unless it was a bass signal. Highs don't take a lot of power to produce, and the human voice is between 150-1000 hz closer to 1000hz
But I have tripped out circuit breakers with feedback and not blown speakers.

But in the case of the peavey sp-2's they are gauranteed for 5 years, then the replacement cost of a 15" basket is only $65.00 so no biggie. That is why I recommend peavey. Also I have seen sp-2's new for as low as $250.00 each