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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:44 pm 
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OK, you bag of mulletheads. I'll just go on sounding like a mix at Red Rocks like my buddy (6 Golds 2 Plats) told me.
And another regular at my show that was Buddy Guy's drummer for a time and his buddy that performed before 10,000 when he was with the Steve Miller Band with Lee Ritenour and he wrote 4 songs on the Abracadaba Album. They also are impressed with the mix. You don't like the sticks and I don't either with other mixers because they don't work together as was intended. The T1TME married to the L1 Mod II with B2 sub is great at least in my hands. Hands down. Presently I will not use anything else in venues smaller than a ballroom and there I will string 2 of those systems with 2 Packlites and 2 more B2s. From the mouths of those who have been to my shows is the proof in the pudding. Especially those who have spent time in studios and had Rock and Roll successes.


(@$%&#!) a little more without hearing my setup why don't you.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Brilliant!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:31 am 
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I would love to hear your setup...........but you resort to name calling on those you obviously think aren't qualified to judge so no point!
:roll: Which tells me a lot!!!
I also hear more often than not (not only in forums but even local kj's) the same "everyone I know tells me how great my sound is" - which is what draws me in to their show - and 9 out of 10 times it's really not. Yes I hear that too about my show - does it mean anything, maybe, maybe not - I too get local musicians and band members that come in because of the sound they say but.... How many people are going to tell anyone to their face that like going to a show (or friends/acquaintances) their sound isn't great?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:38 am 
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Bastiat wrote:
But let's say the engineer ran that guitar through a simple delay that was panned hard right while the guitar was panned hard left. If you play this guitar track through a stereo system, that guitar will sound very open and spacious, pretty much the way in which the engineer was intending for it to sound like.

only to about 10 people in the center of the room.
the people in the left side of the room will get the guitar with no delay, and the people on the right of the room will get the delayed signal with no dry guitar.
in larger venues where people can be farther away...maybe, but in bars?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:41 am 
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dvdgdry wrote:
OK, you bag of mulletheads. I'll just go on sounding like a mix at Red Rocks like my buddy (6 Golds 2 Plats) told me.
And another regular at my show that was Buddy Guy's drummer for a time and his buddy that performed before 10,000 when he was with the Steve Miller Band with Lee Ritenour and he wrote 4 songs on the Abracadaba Album. They also are impressed with the mix. You don't like the sticks and I don't either with other mixers because they don't work together as was intended. The T1TME married to the L1 Mod II with B2 sub is great at least in my hands. Hands down. Presently I will not use anything else in venues smaller than a ballroom and there I will string 2 of those systems with 2 Packlites and 2 more B2s. From the mouths of those who have been to my shows is the proof in the pudding. Especially those who have spent time in studios and had Rock and Roll successes.


<span style=font-size:10px><i>(@$%&#!)</i></span> a little more without hearing my setup why don't you.


I feel your pain.. My system sounds so good, I end up most nights just signing autographs.
No time left to KJ. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:56 am 
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8) How good or bad a system sounds is all subjective. Most of the time karaoke is performed in a noisy bar situation not exactly a concert hall, with perfect acoustics to begin with. This great sound that is trying to be achieved is further frustrated by the fact if you are a mobile host, you are constantly setting up and pulling down equipment, in ever changing room sizes, and equipment set up areas. If you are mobile and not in one venue for years where you can perfect your sound system, then compromises have to be made. The bottom line is the bottom line, if you can get your sound to where you are not clearing the bar, and keeping a large crowd, then for any host that is the proof in the pudding.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:54 am 
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Hey Paradigm ... the statement that I addressed was that of whether or not I was suggesting if KJs should play stereo in a bar, to which my answer was that they absolutely should, and I think you might have missed the point. The point being that it was not so much as to what the audience hears in a stereo system, but rather what happens to the music when playing a stereo mixed track through a mono system. As you've noted, the people on the left will get the guitar with no delay while the people on the right will get the delayed signal while the people sitting in the center will hear a combination of the two.

While that isn't entirely true (due to room reflections, reverb, etc.), for the sake of discussion taking that at face value through your example you've noted that ALL of the people at the venue heard the guitar albeit differently depending on where it was that they were located within the room and their proximity to the PA system's speakers. BUT while they all heard the guitar track differently, nevertheless they ALL heard the guitar whereas if that same prerecorded track where played back through a mono system, NOBODY would have heard the guitar due to the phase cancellations at the mixing console. It is for that reason alone why music that was intended to be played back in a stereo system should not be played back in a mono system if it can be avoided.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Boy I sure wasn't anticipating an equipment war between the Bose evangelists and the non-believers. For those of you who are really into Bose products, I say it's okay to love Bose, especially if they're working for you. For those who don't like Bose products, I say it's also okay not to love them either. Name calling is not okay. If someone is stating opinion as fact then by all means do your best to correct them, but darn it don't call people names just because they don't agree with you. ESPECIALLY when both of you are only expressing your opinions. Personally, I've never heard a Bose system that I liked except for a bass rig a friend of mine slammed together where he stacked a metal cone Hartke cabinet (I think there were 4 - 10" drivers) on top of a Bose bass bin. I don't know how much the Bose bass bin contributed to the overall sound but nevertheless it was a killer bass sound in my opinion. The style of music was R&B, and funk. Slap and pop never sounded so good as it did on this rig.

In any event, please try to keep the posts civil. I'm learning a lot from these posts. For example I had never given any thought whatsoever about a mono vs. stereo issue, but thanks to Paradigm I'm going to address this in one of the sections in the book. "Ringing" monitors or microphones is another one I hadn't thought about, but thanks to KNF and Lonman I'm now aware of the term. In fact I wasn't even familiar with the term although after having done some research on the subject it appears to be a fairly common term so it is likely that I had encountered the term and probably on more than one occasion but just totally forgot about it and never gave it much thought as back in the day if I ever attempted to EQ my speakers or mics, I would always "pink" them instead. Here again I will devote some coverage of this topic in the book.

So if anyone has any suggestions or things they would like to read about in this book please let me know. The one thing that I won't get into however is equipment wars. I don't mind comparing features of one device vs another if I'm familiar with the devices in question, but unless a particular device is a horrible waste of money, I won't engage in a Mackie vs Behringer argument.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:22 pm 
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i wouldn't mind knowing more about sound waves and how to minimize their boomerang effect on large glass and metal surfaces at a small store-front saloon bar in NV. From a distance the sound is excellent but up close distorted and tinny.
A kj in town asked me about it and i honestly didn't know the answer.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:43 pm 
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johnreynolds ... what you've started to describe sounds like one of those horror stories that keep acoustic engineers and acousticians awake at night. Glass & Metal ... Ouch. In your post you didn't mention where in relation the bad sound area is to the speakers or where in the room the speakers are placed, or the distance between microphone(s) and speakers, etc. Are the speakers placed closest to the most reflective surfaces or furthest away from the most reflective surfaces? The possible good news is that the offending frequencies appear to be in the upper frequency range so you might be able to improve your situation with some selective speaker placement and a few other minor adjustments. The best case scenario of course would be to persuade the venue into treating the reflective surfaces in the room with absorptive materials or diffusers, etc., but that is usually never going to happen.

The key to understanding room and speaker response however does require testing, and the depth and type of testing for this particular scenario may be a bit beyond the scope of the book, but there might be a few things you can try to improve the situation once you've gathered some basic information. You would need to determine a few things to begin with such as room dimensions and surface materials. Hopefully you're dealing with a room shape that's something other than an "L" shape room. Dealing with an "L" shape room is not really practical for a mobile operation but having said that, there are times when you are faced with that scenario so if it is "L" shaped then your best course of action with a mobile system is to either declare one of the sections (hopefully the smallest of the two) as a non-listening area. The other option would be to place an additional speaker or speakers in one of the "L" sections and you would also need to insert a digital delay in-line between the pre-amp or mix channel output and the amplifier or powered speaker(s) if the speaker(s) is/are active.

If the room you are referring to is a common square or rectangular shape, then you just need to measure the length, the width and the distance between the floor and the ceiling. It need not be 100% accurate, but as close as you can get without disturbing the clientele. You're going to want to calculate the theoretical Potential Acoustic Gain (PAG) of the system. (System = Listening Targets + Sound System, etc.). You'll need to know 4 other measurements to calculate the (PAG):
• The distance between the microphone and the loudspeaker
• The distance between the singer/talker and the farthest listener
• The distance between the loudspeaker and the farthest listener
• The distance between the singer/talker and the microphone

The PAG is theoretical, and there are other complications in the real world. This is especially true in your situation where there seems to be some challenging circumstances. The variations in direct sound compared to reflected sound, the echoes, the presence of people, the atmosphere, to mention a few all conspire to make each position in a room acoustically different. It is important to remember however that if the dimensions of a sound system don't provide the needed gain with the theoretical free field conditions, then they are even less likely to work under real world conditions.

Some major points to remember are:
1. To make a significant change in the gain of a sound system before it feeds back, distances need to be doubled or cut in half. (Inverse Square Law)

2. Changes to improve the potential acoustic gain of a system involve:
a. Making the loudspeaker-to-microphone distance as large as possible.
b. Making the loudspeaker-to-listener distance as small as possible.
c. Most importantly and easiest, making the singer/talker-to-microphone distance as small as possible (which is why you'll often see some professional performers "swallowing" the mic).

3. Limiting the number of open microphones will also improve the potential acoustic gain of the system (approx 3db per mic).

If you're good with math and aren't shy about working with logarithms then PM me and I'll send you the formulae. If you aren't comfortable with doing the math PM me the above dimensions and I'll do the math for you.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Please remember your title "Sound Reinforcement for KJ's" in other words... Keep it simple.

We all know about the many different variables and obstacles... but do keep in mind there are tools for everything now-a-days to simplify many things. technology has become very advanced to simplify many things to give us what we are looking to accomplish.

As long as variables change there will never be a one true answer. Kinda like a mechanic knowing how to fix cars but at the same time many brands of cars make different things keeping them always on the learning cycle.

It's great to educate or to be educated in Sound, but keeping it simple will go a longer way.

Just the other day I watched a video on a recording studio miking drums an both sides reversing the phase on the other... I know this is done with the snare but come on... all the drums, two mics in the kick too... OVERKILL is OVERKILL.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:44 am 
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Hey there KNF, you might want to go a little bit lighter on the criticisms of the book until you've at least read it. You should bear in mind a couple of things. First and foremost, it takes an awful lot of work to put something like this together especially when trying to take on some very complex acoustic issues and simplify them to the point where they require very little knowledge of math and engineering, and I'm not referring to the 10,000 sidewalk "sound" engineers that I've encountered over the years, but I mean real engineers with at least some education in one of the sciences. Secondly the book is free. If you've printed the book and find that it's too complicated to read, then use it for kindling in your fireplace or if you don't have a fireplace use it as a coaster for your morning coffee or tea or whatever it is that you drink. Trust me I will not be offended in the least.

Also I think you're selling your fellow KJs rather short. I've interacted with several KJs over the years as you might have guessed, and I'll be the first to admit that at times they can appear to be a different breed. However on average, I didn't find them to be any less intelligent than members of any other group, and in fact in my view the opposite is true. Nevertheless if what you seem to imply is true, then the title of the book can be changed easily enough to attract a different audience. How does "Sound Reinforcement For The Hearing Impaired Mensa Member" sound to you. At the end of the day there's over 50 years of knowledge and experience inside this book that involved much study and lots of trial and error in the field in its application. Knowledge is power as they say, but nobody is forcing anyone to consume that knowledge. You're free to take it or leave it, as I've said the book is free.

It surprises me (well actually, not really) that you think that the use of two mics placed in a kick drum with one wired out of phase is overkill. It's a common practice that I've done many times myself to electronically dampen the kick drum, helping to eliminate it's ring. Double micing snares (commonly done with a pair of SM57s) is done to record the snare separately from the drum head and is not usually done out of phase. Drum kits are among the most difficult and problematic instruments to record and can challenge the budget of any studio in having to add to its mic locker to achieve that goal. A pair of Gefell UM900s at $4,000 each or a pair of Telefunken U47s at $20,000 each just for the overheads alone is nothing to sneeze at so most engineers that I know that are worth their salt don't indiscriminately stick mics everywhere just for the sake of "overkill".


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:55 am 
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I can tell from your Extra long posts and well paragraphed too boot, that this book will be a good read for many. I don't mean to criticize and cut short the talents of KJ's but I do notice many KJ's on this forum look for "Simplicity, Portability, Mobility, Cost effective, Quality"

when you mention in the title "Sound Reinforcement" you refer mostly with "Acoustics" but there is much more to it. for example while you mention the definitions of a speaker cable... I would be the one who would most likely say... "hey, 20ft speak cables $39... 50ft speak cable $49.00... speakon ends $5.00 each" Just buy one 50ft and two ends and cut the cable in half to make two 25ft cables $30/each.

Your book can also teach stuff on how to make your own cables... or even how to properly patch an iPod to a mixer properly using a 1/8" jack to Two 1/4" jacks adaptor.

or even understanding the difference between Parallel and serial connections including what "Not to do"

just because an amp is rated at 20,000 watts doesn't mean you can connect 100 speakers directly to it without knowledge of parallel/serial wiring. (8-4-2 Ohms, What is really Stable )

What the hell is bridging anyway? is there such a thing of stereo bridging? why the hell buy a stereo amplifier if i'm just gonna wind up mono bridging it anyway? why don't they just make a mono amp.

what about the word "Integrated" in sound reinforcement? or what about the "HUM" you know Sound reinforcement also refers to "Hum" cause/effect/ how to understand how it just magically shows up like an unwanted guest.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:12 pm 
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I've always used QSC amps for the unpowered PVs I had, eventually all powered QSC Monitors and singer monitor smaller QSC, Mogami cables, and here's the kicker always high quality microphones, Shure eventually Sennheiser. The thing that bugs me most are karaoke hosts that have decent speakers, good mixer, etc, then very cheap microphones. The last thing a good singer wants to see is a bad unfiltered mic, but I see it time and again. I worked with a KJ once who was using $10 mics from China, some he got free buying other stuff. His theory was go ahead drop kick them, don't matter. One dropped once and the whole rounded cage was flat, talk about cheap. I understand that no one wants a good mic damaged by a drunk patron, but that is where the KJ sets some ground rules. I always bring a mic stand, use cabled mics except a portable I use, or will allow a good singer to use out front. As a good singer, nothing infuriates me more then KJs who use poor equipment, really don't care what the singer sounds like as long as they get paid. The other thing I see time and again, as was mentioned is poor setup. I've seen speakers opposing one another, like these things don't work in stereo. I've seen speakers inside of small areas with part of the wall covering the speaker, then the sound was muffled. I could write a book about all the bad setups I've seen, delicately I always try to help, some thank me, some become argumentative. KJs should look at some setup recommendations for different sized rooms, it's all online with pictures. There is no excuse for the KJ not going out into the crowd and listening, or taking recommendations from the listeners, just my 2 cents worth.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:41 pm 
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Okay so this one is going to be a long one, but the main reason that acoustics was mostly referred to was because if you recall that's what was initially brought up in the thread when you made your remark about "tuning a room", and I was trying to make the point that "tuning a room" is not the same as "tuning your sound system" to accommodate the room's acoustics. I was trying to illustrate the importance of that distinction as not just a matter of semantics. Also, sound reinforcement is an integral part of acoustics and the better understanding one has of acoustics the better equipped they will be in setting up their PA systems to accommodate different acoustical spaces. A better understanding as to the mechanics of sound can also help in understanding the strengths and limitations of their own PA systems. Even if the math is beyond what someone is willing to perform, they can still understand the principles that should be of benefit without having to do the math.

Have you ever noticed that a very common statement is just how "great" everyone's system sounds? For someone like me who is very anal about the accuracy of my systems, I was never totally happy with mine so it amazes me how people with off-the-shelf systems can find them so remarkable. When I tell you I can be anal about things I'm not speaking metaphorically. I designed a lot of my own systems to be flexible enough to accommodate the type of gig I was doing. The last system that I designed was an active 3-way system with a high frequency horn, an 8" mid-range driver, and an interchangeable 12" low frequency driver. if I was doing an acoustic solo or duo gig, I loaded the boxes with 12" ATC woofers which actually operated in the sub-woofer range. They had neoprene surrounds and in an acoustic environment that required low volume, they really provided some very decent low end. However, if I was doing a gig with my high energy dance/funk trio, I loaded the boxes with 12" ElectroVoice 12M low frequency drivers which have a much stiffer suspension than the ATCs, and took the 12" ATCs and loaded them in a big (@$%&#!) folded horn sub-woofer box. That system could easily accommodate room sizes between 200 to 250 and possibly more. The subs legitimately went down to 20 Hz and i could literally make a room full of people puke if I didn't roll off some of the low end.

Where the anal comes in is that through the design process I would take each speaker box outdoors in my back yard and run white and pink noise through the systems, then flatten them out using separate parametric EQs for each channel. If I could have found and afforded to rent an anechoic chamber instead, I would have done so. The end result was that I always had a point of reference to work with and rarely needed anything more than a bit of shelving EQ on the low and high end (flat systems aren't very appealing), unless the room had some really funky stuff going on acoustically.

You mentioned cables in your post. Here is another area where someone might consider me to be a bit anal. I had my speaker cables custom built with 6 prong receptacles that I affixed to a 6 wire cable. 2 of the wires were 10 ga (needed to address low end damping factors), two of them 14 ga and the last two were 16 ga. Nevertheless, as you can see that I put a great deal of thought and detail into my sound systems but NEVER thought that they were "great", but rather I was always aware of the weaknesses and limitations of the systems.

So the things you mention in your post are all worthy of consideration and in a previous post I said that I was interested in hearing things that might be found to be of use in covering sound reinforcement systems. i do have a "connectivity" chapter outlined but have not begun to write the copy for it yet. Obviously I won't be advocating for people to go to the extremes that I went to for speaker cables but at the very least there'll be some coverage as to gauge, polarity (if making DIY cables), and connectors. I don't think I'll cover anything that would require the use of a soldering gun. As far as connecting an iPod to a mixer or any device with an 1/8" stereo output, sure I guess that's worth a mention, although I'll want to research that a bit to ascertain if using the analog output is the most practical or if there's an easy and cleaner way to connect it to a digital input for those with digital mixers or analog mixers with a digital input (i.e. TOS link, etc.).

I'm not aware of any company that makes a mono amp anymore and I don't really see any benefit in doing so anyway. Bridgeable amps use a single power supply anyway so I just look at it as a mono amp that you can use as a stereo amp if need be. The main application to bridging an amp is for use with a subwoofer. Most electronic crossovers sum the low frequencies which are omnidirectional so channel separation is pretty much a non-issue. I used to use a pair of mono Neptune amps (MOSFET) on my mids which provided great separation. Unfortunately they weren't very reliable and they spent more time in the repair shop than they did in my amp rack. I know a lot of people who used to complain about putting volume controls on amps claiming that it's just one more part to repair and they do add a bit of noise to the amp. I actually like volume controls on amplifiers. They are always the last thing in the chain that I turn on but when I first turn them on I like to turn them down to 0 before I crank them up to 10.

As far as hum ... it depends on the type of hum. I remember we used to play this club in Newport, RI where the back wall of the stage was up against a glass window looking in the club. The window had several neon signs hanging from it and it used to play havoc with the guitar player's Gibson SG. It was an original SG with the original "soap bar" pickups which were single coils. Couldn't get the club owner to turn off the neon signs so it was always frustrating to play that room. That was a very long time ago and given that situation today with a lot more knowledge under my belt I think I could have a dramatic effect on that hum. Then there's always 60 cycle hum which is pretty common (60 cycle in the U.S., 50 cycle in Europe), and pretty easy to fix. 99% of the time it's caused by a ground loop which happens when two or more pieces of equipment with grounding plugs (3 prong plugs) are connected to an electrical outlet and the same two or more pieces of equipment are connected to each other either with a shielded cable, or bolted to the same metal rack rail without any isolation causing a ground loop. There are a couple of different ways to approach that problem. One way which I don't recommend but does usually work is to "lift" the ground using a 3 prong to 2 prong adapter. The problem with that method is that it defeats the safety feature of the ground plug. Just make sure that at least one of the 3 prong plugs is not lifted The second and my preferred way is to detach the shield from the neutral wire on one end only of the Hi-Z cable at the 1/4" connector which connects the two devices together. I also either removed the rails entirely from the rack and replaced them with wooden rails or would put nylon washers between the rail and the equipment at the screw holes and between the equipment and the screw head.


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