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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:56 pm 
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One could get any number of food born illnesses from food. I have never gotten sick from cash.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:26 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan B wrote:

OK. I totally understand what you are saying and I hope it never comes to that. But, in this case, where there's no reason for bartering, we're talking about a bar owner who doesn't place any value on the people he hires and the people who feel they're worthless by accepting to work under those conditions.



8) I to Alan hope that it never comes to that, but there is always the possibility of a major financial shakedown at any time. Just because there is no reason for bartering now, unless of course you like trading, doesn't mean that at sometime things could change, things we have no control over. Many people don't even have a basic 90 day supply of food or water. Unless you luck out and you manage a big warehouse out in the wilds there is a chance things could get very desperate. To dismiss any scenario out of hand just because it never occurred to you, doesn't mean it could play out. There is an old saying, "Hope for the best and be prepared for the worst". Everything has a value to someone, ever watch "Storage Wars", you just have to find the right person. If something can be exchanged for cash or like value, then it has a value, at least to someone.
Why are you having such a hard time with this?

You can't live your life by "what if this", "what if that". Yes, anything could happen at anytime. A nuclear war could break out tomorrow but right now, at this moment in time it's all irrelevant. You have to focus on the present. That's what's real.

Why can't you acknowledge what we're talking about and stay in the present. We're talking about a bar owner that places no value on the people he wants to hire, refuse to pay them cash, and thinks he's doing them a favor by giving them food vouchers.

And we're also talking about someone who doesn't think very highly of themselves to actually accept such an offer meaning they feel that they have no self worth.

And that's what we are talking about. Plain and simple.

Now, offering your services for free for a charity or a benefit is something totally different. But we're strictly talking about a bar owner trying to get over on you.

Like that bar owner, we are in business to make money. I wonder how that bar owner would feel if you went into his place to eat and then tell him I'm not going to pay you for your food but I'll clean off your tables instead. I'm willing to bet, especially if your bill was any sizable amount that he wouldn't like it or agree to it. So, why should you.

Now please, for the last time, stay focused on what we're talking about. We're not talking about what may or may not happen. We're not talking about Hillary or Trump. We're talking about a bar. Thank You.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:57 am 
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dvdgdry wrote:
One could get any number of food born illnesses from food. I have never gotten sick from cash.



8) You never heard of dirty money?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:12 am 
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Alan B wrote:
Why are you having such a hard time with this?

You can't live your life by "what if this", "what if that". Yes, anything could happen at anytime. A nuclear war could break out tomorrow but right now, at this moment in time it's all irrelevant. You have to focus on the present. That's what's real.

Why can't you acknowledge what we're talking about and stay in the present. We're talking about a bar owner that places no value on the people he wants to hire, refuse to pay them cash, and thinks he's doing them a favor by giving them food vouchers.

And we're also talking about someone who doesn't think very highly of themselves to actually accept such an offer meaning they feel that they have no self worth.

And that's what we are talking about. Plain and simple.

Now, offering your services for free for a charity or a benefit is something totally different. But we're strictly talking about a bar owner trying to get over on you.

Like that bar owner, we are in business to make money. I wonder how that bar owner would feel if you went into his place to eat and then tell him I'm not going to pay you for your food but I'll clean off your tables instead. I'm willing to bet, especially if your bill was any sizable amount that he wouldn't like it or agree to it. So, why should you.

Now please, for the last time, stay focused on what we're talking about. We're not talking about what may or may not happen. We're not talking about Hillary or Trump. We're talking about a bar. Thank You.[/quote]

8) I'm not having a hard time with this. Your point of view Alan is correct for this economic environment we are currently in. All I'm saying is this current economic situation we are in could change in a short period of time. Nothing is constant and all is subject to change. In order to survive a person has to change with the times. For example today a host can't command the pay he once could, that is just an economic fact, brought about by changes in the market for hosting services. You say absolutely that you would never accept anything but money for your services, under the current situation that is a sustainable position. Things could change and other forms of value could take the place of money under certain economic conditions. It isn't ancient history since there are plenty of recent examples of society collapsing and money becoming worthless. You believe it couldn't happen here, but it can and probably will sometime in the future. I think if I can accept your reasoning about the current situation, you should accept the idea that this situation could change and that food for play might look good one day.

P.S. What if I were hosting and said I wouldn't play for less than 300.00 for four hours, how many gigs do you think I would get? If I say I will play for $150.00 I could probably find work, if I lowered my price more there would be more interested venues. Supply and demand plain and simple. This is the new reality of hosting, it is very competitive, and you have the volunteers out there who work for just tips, how are you going to compete with them? It is totally up to the host to decide what type of compensation he is willing to take.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:24 am 
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Alan B wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan B wrote:

OK. I totally understand what you are saying and I hope it never comes to that. But, in this case, where there's no reason for bartering, we're talking about a bar owner who doesn't place any value on the people he hires and the people who feel they're worthless by accepting to work under those conditions.



8) I to Alan hope that it never comes to that, but there is always the possibility of a major financial shakedown at any time. Just because there is no reason for bartering now, unless of course you like trading, doesn't mean that at sometime things could change, things we have no control over. Many people don't even have a basic 90 day supply of food or water. Unless you luck out and you manage a big warehouse out in the wilds there is a chance things could get very desperate. To dismiss any scenario out of hand just because it never occurred to you, doesn't mean it could play out. There is an old saying, "Hope for the best and be prepared for the worst". Everything has a value to someone, ever watch "Storage Wars", you just have to find the right person. If something can be exchanged for cash or like value, then it has a value, at least to someone.
Why are you having such a hard time with this?

You can't live your life by "what if this", "what if that". Yes, anything could happen at anytime. A nuclear war could break out tomorrow but right now, at this moment in time it's all irrelevant. You have to focus on the present. That's what's real.

Why can't you acknowledge what we're talking about and stay in the present. We're talking about a bar owner that places no value on the people he wants to hire, refuse to pay them cash, and thinks he's doing them a favor by giving them food vouchers.

And we're also talking about someone who doesn't think very highly of themselves to actually accept such an offer meaning they feel that they have no self worth.

And that's what we are talking about. Plain and simple.

Now, offering your services for free for a charity or a benefit is something totally different. But we're strictly talking about a bar owner trying to get over on you.

Like that bar owner, we are in business to make money. I wonder how that bar owner would feel if you went into his place to eat and then tell him I'm not going to pay you for your food but I'll clean off your tables instead. I'm willing to bet, especially if your bill was any sizable amount that he wouldn't like it or agree to it. So, why should you.

Now please, for the last time, stay focused on what we're talking about. We're not talking about what may or may not happen. We're not talking about Hillary or Trump. We're talking about a bar. Thank You.

Ah but Alan, there is a restaurant that does exactly that. It's in Philadelphia and owned by Jon Bon Jovi. So your scenario is as squat as your argument.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:01 am 
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Bon Jovi's restaurant is the exception rather then the rule.

I am fortunate enough to be a F/T karaoke DJ. In order for my business to be successful, It needs to support itself (Taxes, insurance, product, maintenance, etc.), AND it needs to support me (rent, food, bills, etc.) Unlike someone who has a regular 9-5 job, gets paid vacation, a 401K and benefits, I have to do that for myself.

Now: I have a limited amount of time to make all that money. Weeknights, weekend afternoon and evenings. Sure I get an occasional afternoon job, but that money goes into the rainy day fund for when we are slow to balance out our weeks. And we get those too.

F/T hosts get mad at people who work cheap or free because many of them have a job or other income that they rely on and can do our job for "fun" or to make a little pocket change. So when the value of our service in an area goes down, we are the ones who feel it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:39 am 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
Bon Jovi's restaurant is the exception rather then the rule.

I am fortunate enough to be a F/T karaoke DJ. In order for my business to be successful, It needs to support itself (Taxes, insurance, product, maintenance, etc.), AND it needs to support me (rent, food, bills, etc.) Unlike someone who has a regular 9-5 job, gets paid vacation, a 401K and benefits, I have to do that for myself.

Now: I have a limited amount of time to make all that money. Weeknights, weekend afternoon and evenings. Sure I get an occasional afternoon job, but that money goes into the rainy day fund for when we are slow to balance out our weeks. And we get those too.

F/T hosts get mad at people who work cheap or free because many of them have a job or other income that they rely on and can do our job for "fun" or to make a little pocket change. So when the value of our service in an area goes down, we are the ones who feel it.



8) F/T hosts have to realize that there are lots of cheap or free hosts out there. You have to keep the quality of your service high if you want to make the big bucks. You can't get by with being just average anymore, there are some quite good hosts that work for $100.00 or less. That is why anyone thinking about doing hosting as a full time job, should really think about it twice. It has evolved in my opinion for the most part, into a part time, or extra money sort of business. That is part of the reason I decided to retire, it was a hobby that became a business, I paid taxes, wrote off equipment etc, etc, etc, it just got to the point the struggle for the money being offered didn't really make sense anymore. Many hosts have stated that if they would have known how the business situation for hosting would have evolved they would have made a different choice as far as career.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:35 am 
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dvdgdry wrote:
One could get any number of food born illnesses from food. I have never gotten sick from cash.

5 years in this family restaurant and I’ve never gotten food poisoning. All food facilities are strictly regulated by the health and food safety department, inspection is routinely conducted. Major and minor violations that pose a public health danger require immediate correction or may be subject to closure.

8) btw I got sick accepting cash from an ill-person (flu). He insisted I take the cash for payment of a song I downloaded on the fly. I was sick as a dog following night. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:48 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:

8) F/T hosts have to realize that there are lots of cheap or free hosts out there. You have to keep the quality of your service high if you want to make the big bucks. You can't get by with being just average anymore, there are some quite good hosts that work for $100.00 or less. That is why anyone thinking about doing hosting as a full time job, should really think about it twice. It has evolved in my opinion for the most part, into a part time, or extra money sort of business. That is part of the reason I decided to retire, it was a hobby that became a business, I paid taxes, wrote off equipment etc, etc, etc, it just got to the point the struggle for the money being offered didn't really make sense anymore. Many hosts have stated that if they would have known how the business situation for hosting would have evolved they would have made a different choice as far as career.


Oh I totally realize it! In this day and age, you can start up with a decent mobile system for about $1000 in gear if your know what your buying. The music can be easily stolen online, so of course why should they pay for that? ::sigh::

I wish people wouldn't charge next to nothing, but it happens all to often. I can't tell you how many gigs I've walked into where they wanted to replace a KJ who was horrible for one reason or another, and then balk at my price quote. "We only paid them $50 for the whole night!". Hey, you get what you pay for.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Is this for a large "corporate" type restaurant? If so, I'd be all over it...$75 an hour? $300-$375 per gig (assuming 4-5 hours per show)? I'd take the gift cards and march over to the grocery store to the "cash for gift-cards" kiosk, and get the cash out. Sure, the machine take 10-20%, but you're still getting $250 to $300 per gig that way! Everyone wins. Of course, this only works if the kiosk accepts those particular gift cards, which is why I'm asking if it is a larger corporate restaurant chain that would be accepted there. I'd be all over it!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 pm 
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8) See here is someone with an angle that hasn't even been brought up. There is some value after all.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:53 pm 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:


Oh I totally realize it! In this day and age, you can start up with a decent mobile system for about $1000 in gear if your know what your buying. The music can be easily stolen online, so of course why should they pay for that? ::sigh::

I wish people wouldn't charge next to nothing, but it happens all to often. I can't tell you how many gigs I've walked into where they wanted to replace a KJ who was horrible for one reason or another, and then balk at my price quote. "We only paid them $50 for the whole night!". Hey, you get what you pay for.




8) Here is the real truth most of the venues are run by managers that don't have a clue about quality as far as entertainment is concerned. Entertainment is the first place you cut when trying to make the numbers work, at any venue. They only look at the cost, and if the bar if full. If the 50.00 host can keep it profitable why should the owner pay more? That is the most frustrating part of this sometimes it's the venue and not the host that makes the difference. Of course hosts would never admit this.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:51 pm 
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ralphwiggum wrote:
Is this for a large "corporate" type restaurant?


I don't think it is...

Product 19 wrote:
a kj friend of mine said the manager of a venue told her that he pays his kj in food from that venue. if i head her correctly, she said to the tune of $75 an hour placed on a gift card only good at that venue. so if a kj works there 4 hours, that's $300 on a gift card for food at that venue? if i heard her right...

If it were a Chain Restaurant, then the gift card would be good at any restaurant in that Chain, not that one specific location. Thus, you cashing in of that gift card from the kiosk machine across the street would not work.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:01 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
You say absolutely that you would never accept anything but money for your services, under the current situation that is a sustainable position. Things could change and other forms of value could take the place of money under certain economic conditions. It isn't ancient history since there are plenty of recent examples of society collapsing and money becoming worthless. You believe it couldn't happen here, but it can and probably will sometime in the future. I think if I can accept your reasoning about the current situation, you should accept the idea that this situation could change and that food for play might look good one day.

I don't think that Product 19 was asking this question (in the title of this Topic Thread) based on a "What If" hypothesis (which you keep going back to in your arguments with Alan). From what he explained (based on hear-say from a friend) I believe he posted that question to be answered in the "Here-and-Now." I think if Product 19 wanted to know if you would be willing to barter instead of insisting on cash only for your services, based on if our economy changed and went back to a time when bartering was the norm (and not the exception to the rules), he would have asked that within one of his posts.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:59 pm 
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In that case, no, not unless the gift card is a throw away Visa or MasterCard. At least with that I can use it just about anywhere.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:15 am 
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cueball wrote:
I don't think that Product 19 was asking this question (in the title of this Topic Thread) based on a "What If" hypothesis (which you keep going back to in your arguments with Alan). From what he explained (based on hear-say from a friend) I believe he posted that question to be answered in the "Here-and-Now." I think if Product 19 wanted to know if you would be willing to barter instead of insisting on cash only for your services, based on if our economy changed and went back to a time when bartering was the norm (and not the exception to the rules), he would have asked that within one of his posts.



8) I think the real question is if the item being offered in lieu of cash has any value at all? It does have some value and if the host is willing to work for what is being offered that is the host choice? It is getting near the holidays, the earned certificates could be used as Christmas gifts, that would save you from having to run up credit cards or pulling cash out of your pocket to pay for things to give to friends and relations. So for at least the holidays I would be willing to work for the food vouchers, that would save all that shopping and having to go to the mall, something I'm forced to do every year thanks to my wife. I tell her we can just shop on line, but she has to go out and have the whole experience. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

P.S. Just for the record the current economic system is not the norm, the modern system of economics has only been around for 200 years. Before that trade was actually trade and very little money was used, people were quite frequently paid in goods and at one time salt was used as hard currency.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:13 am 
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Quote:
After a few years of this, I changed my ways: I charge my regular price and supply a referral code that gives them 10-25% of the cost back... and it's a 200% return deal: meaning they get the full price of my services back, plus a "donation" in the same amount to their cause. Many have been paid back plus, sometimes it goes above it if I am into the cause or they I got a lot of work from that event. I get my advertising, they get my services, and most of them make some money for doing what they promised. Everyone is happy.


I hope you aren't then writing your "donation" to the charity off on your taxes. If you are, you are committing tax fraud, a felony punishable by up to 5 years in prison and up to a $250,000 fine. We had a thread on this exact situation a few years ago here on the forum.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:01 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
It is getting near the holidays, the earned certificates could be used as Christmas gifts, that would save you from having to run up credit cards or pulling cash out of your pocket to pay for things to give to friends and relations. So for at least the holidays I would be willing to work for the food vouchers...

So, since you can only use these "food vouchers" at this establishment, and if the food there really sucked, you would give the gift of the "Greasy Spoon" to your friends? You must not think very highly of them.

Unless you know for a fact that your friends love going to a particular restaurant, then I'm sure they would love a gift certificate for that place. But otherwise, bad choice in gifts.

Again, you're still trying to justify the situation. But it's just not working my friend. Instead of staying focused on the topic, we have the "but Hillary", "but Obama" syndrome.


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I'd say he's allowed to do whatever he wants. If he wants to work for food, he can work for food. If he wants to work for free, he can work for free. If he wants to work strictly for access to the 60 something groupies......

Why is it any of your business what he accepts in return for his time?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:43 am 
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Here's why, if I were a host, I wouldn't do this: the markup.

Restaurants are about a 300-350% on cost of goods on average (full range is somewhere between 150% and 650%). Now, obviously, they are a business, and have expenses, utilities, and payroll to pay. But since this method requires paying them back with the payment, they're really only out the cost of goods--the revenue wouldn't apply because this is a meal that would otherwise not be sold.

Effectively, they're getting away with paying $75-100 for the gig, but making it sound much more lucrative by providing $300 retail for it.


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