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 Post subject: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:47 pm 
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This is for those more seasoned sound guys. What is better, in your opinion, high gain-Low volume, or low gain - high volume? I have tried it both ways, not sure what I like better.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Your gain should be equal to 0db. Or if you’re looking at your led meters turn gain up till you see all green lights and set around first yellow light. Do this wayforeach channel

Then adjust your main volumes according to the room volume.


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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:58 pm 
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That doesn't seem like it works universally. In smaller venues, I HAVE to back the gain down, cause I get feedback, REAL easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:51 am 
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if your gain AVERAGES 0db and you get feedback you have another issue.
either the overall volume is too high, or the eq is not right for the space.
proper gain structure has the gain for a mic at the same over 0 as under 0.
for example, if the quiet vocal parts put the gain on the meter at -4, the louds should be about +4.
or 7 or whatever it is. the same over as under.
then compression comes into play to narrow that span.

but if i remember correctly, you have no pfl to set gain on your mixer.
how are you setting it?

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:14 am 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
if your gain AVERAGES 0db and you get feedback you have another issue.
either the overall volume is too high, or the eq is not right for the space.
proper gain structure has the gain for a mic at the same over 0 as under 0.
for example, if the quiet vocal parts put the gain on the meter at -4, the louds should be about +4.
or 7 or whatever it is. the same over as under.
then compression comes into play to narrow that span.

but if i remember correctly, you have no pfl to set gain on your mixer.
how are you setting it?

I have PFL on the Zeds. I tried running the gains at 0, the other night. Now the situation is the place I am stuck setting up in is very small, so the mics are way closer to the speakers than I would like. My 15s are about 16 feet apart. Up front, in the middle is my 12" monitor. Normally, I keep the mic gains at about 10:00, which is 0 for the mics. I keep the mains at 0. The volume sliders are usually pretty high. Well, I turned the gain up to Line Unity, (the ZED's gains show settings for line and mic.). I was able to back the sliders down, and had more room headroom on them, but got way more feedback. I keep the compressor set at, or around -15 Threshold at about a 4:1 ratio, output gain about +10. I do adjust from time to time.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:06 am 
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eq'ing your main mix will fix your feedback! I can wave my mic's in front of my speakers within a foot and get no feedback.

basically how you need to set you eq:
1. you need to use a 31-band eq, you can't use anything smaller and be able to knock out feedback efficiently.
2. set all your eq settings at 0DB - flat response no eq'ing of any frequency.
3. it takes 2 people to do this correctly - 1 to speak or sing into the mic and the 2nd to adjust the EQ.
4. while your other person is talking raise the gain on the mic's until you start hearing feedback then pull back a bit to not get feedback but still hear some ringing in the speakers. (ringing) is the begining of feedback before it gets out of control.
5. your going to start working eq's usually around 3k, 1k, & 400Hz. these are your main feedback frequencies that get out of control easily. you will find other freq's that cause issues also, but most are in the human vocal ranges.
6. while your person is talking/singing raise your eq's one at a time in the ranges i listed about in 5, if you can raise the freq without feedback then put it back at 0db. if you get feedback you want to drop that freq below 0db. and do this for all freq's that are causing issues.

after you are done turn you gain up on the vocals and see if you still have feedback. this process with take a couple times but will cleanup almost all your feedback issues.

there are plenty of youtube video's that explain this search for "ringing out speakers".

good luck, this is just the basic's. play and learn is all you can do.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:24 pm 
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mightywiz is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. (major hand claps to mightywiz)

Most people don't realized that feedback is a frequency and therefore it CAN be sliced right out of your main mix.

It also amazes people when your singers walk in front of a speaker.... and nothing happens... no feedback... at all..

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
if your gain AVERAGES 0db and you get feedback you have another issue.
either the overall volume is too high, or the eq is not right for the space.
proper gain structure has the gain for a mic at the same over 0 as under 0.
for example, if the quiet vocal parts put the gain on the meter at -4, the louds should be about +4.
or 7 or whatever it is. the same over as under.
then compression comes into play to narrow that span.

but if i remember correctly, you have no pfl to set gain on your mixer.
how are you setting it?

I have PFL on the Zeds. I tried running the gains at 0, the other night. Now the situation is the place I am stuck setting up in is very small, so the mics are way closer to the speakers than I would like. My 15s are about 16 feet apart. Up front, in the middle is my 12" monitor. Normally, I keep the mic gains at about 10:00, which is 0 for the mics. I keep the mains at 0. The volume sliders are usually pretty high. Well, I turned the gain up to Line Unity, (the ZED's gains show settings for line and mic.). I was able to back the sliders down, and had more room headroom on them, but got way more feedback. I keep the compressor set at, or around -15 Threshold at about a 4:1 ratio, output gain about +10. I do adjust from time to time.

we may be talking about two different things.
the "0" on the gain knob is on the line side of things and not what i meant.
i meant getting "0" on the meters under pfl.
raising the gain gives you less headroom (your input is already closer to clipping than if you were at a lower gain setting) and makes the mic more sensitive adding the the feedback problem.
you should be adjusting the gains to each singer, there is not a "mic" setting per-sey on gain, it is set for each singers volume to get the meters showing what i described earlier.
i would also soften up on your compressor a bit
-15 and 4:1 with +10 is really squashing them and making feedback more a possibility.
-6 is about the most you want to see on the reduction monitor, 3:1 and just enough makeup gain to counteract the gain reduction. at this ratio it won't take nearly that much.
the EQ is absolutely a good idea, but getting the gain set properly can reduce the necessary EQ repair.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:07 pm 
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you also have to remember that ringing out the speakers is not a set once an never change again. so many things can change and cause feedback at other freq's. barometric pressures, humidity, temperature, amount of people in the room, someone turning a speaker to the side. what works 1 week may not work the same the next week.

it's a constant battle for a sound guy/karaoke host, especially when you setup and tear down on a nightly basis.

a good karaoke host will be turning more knobs then a regular DJ on any given night. I also run live music for our church and I work harder at karaoke then I do running a 32 channel board at church.

think about it for a live band you setup for a single singer and a couple backup singers and your pretty much done except for monitoring gains, effects, & tempo from song to song. karaoke is way harder your doing the same adjustments but have a new singer every song you have to tweak and make sound good.

I hate going to a someones show where all the do is call you up to sing and never adjust gains, EQ's, effects and compressors.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:09 pm 
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mightywiz wrote:

I hate going to a someones show where all the do is call you up to sing and never adjust gains, EQ's, effects and compressors.

i see that all too often out here.
on another board there is a guy who says you set the gains by cupping the mic and screaming into it and set the gain to not clipping and never touch it again no matter the singer. and this guy does sound at House Of Blues (Lonnie and Chris know who i'm talking about)
i set gain for each singer, to what their voice needs and get maximum headroom
i re-eq the mic channel to each singer for what their voice needs to be clear and sit properly in the mix
i re-set the effects for each song to fit what the song needs to blend the voice in correctly
this is my job, this is what i signed up to do.
it's amazing how many don't do any of that and just party.
it's not like it takes all 4 minutes...it takes 30 seconds to get it all done.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:34 am 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
mightywiz wrote:

I hate going to a someones show where all the do is call you up to sing and never adjust gains, EQ's, effects and compressors.

i see that all too often out here.
Yep, I see that too, even at my own shows on occasion with my other hosts. You can train them to be a really good host, but you really can't train an ear if they do not have it to begin with. I had pro training/schooling with sound engineering, you can tell the hosts how everything should work & sound, but if they cannot hear it - it's kind of moot. I tell try to train and tell them to do their best but hope their hosting skills will overshadow the poor mixing skills...unfortunately.
I've seen that with live sound as well, usually it's because the sound guy owns the equipment and ends up running it however.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:36 am 
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It's just this one show that I have problems with. It is because everything is close together, so the mics pic up everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:57 am 
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Lonman wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
mightywiz wrote:

I hate going to a someones show where all the do is call you up to sing and never adjust gains, EQ's, effects and compressors.

i see that all too often out here.
Yep, I see that too, even at my own shows on occasion with my other hosts. You can train them to be a really good host, but you really can't train an ear if they do not have it to begin with. I had pro training/schooling with sound engineering, you can tell the hosts how everything should work & sound, but if they cannot hear it - it's kind of moot. I tell try to train and tell them to do their best but hope their hosting skills will overshadow the poor mixing skills...unfortunately.
I've seen that with live sound as well, usually it's because the sound guy owns the equipment and ends up running it however.

not getting it i can work with, even with my own hosts. it's the ones who do not even try singer after singer that piss me off. if they try, and mss, i can excuse it to a point. if they don't touch the gains or eq's, they should not be working in sound. it's like any other job, if you ain't right for the job, you ain't right for the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:38 am 
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mightywiz wrote:
1. you need to use a 31-band eq, you can't use anything smaller and be able to knock out feedback efficiently.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just use a DBX GoRack to eliminate feedback? I have used mine for this purpose and never had any issues with feedback at all.

What the GoRack does:

Anti-Feedback
Feedback is caused when an in-phase audio loop is created between an input transducer (such as a guitar pickup or
microphone) and an output transducer (a loudspeaker). The goRack includes the exclusive AFS™ (Advanced Feedback
Suppression) algorithm to help combat this dreadful phenomenon. The 10 Live AFS filters will automatically detect and
suppress feedback. Just press the ANTI-FEEDBACK button and the goRack will do the rest.

AFS uses precision frequency detection and state-of-the-art processing to determine the exact range of feedback frequencies
to remove (instead of indiscriminately removing large sections of audio). In the past, graphic equalizers were used to eliminate
feedback from a system. This was an acceptable method for eliminating feedback, but when this method is put up against
precision notch filters, such as those found in AFS, it becomes very evident that using graphic equalizers for this task severely
affects the tone of the system. With AFS, the precision filters remove only a fraction of the frequency spectrum, eliminating the
feedback with far less audible artifacts. The below diagram shows a comparison of filter widths between the AFS filters and
conventional 1/3 octave graphic EQ filters.

There are many devices on the market that automatically detect and eliminate feedback. There are other solutions than using a 31 band equalizer. In fact, some mixers even have anti-feedback circuitry built in.

Using the GoRack has been magical in detecting and eliminating feedback. And it's all done for you automatically. Basically, just set it and forget it.


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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:06 am 
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GoRack has been out of production for a couple years and the ones you can find are in the 50-150

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:59 am 
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but you got to remember the go rack has to pickup the feedback first and usually it's audible before it kicks in and squashes that frequency. ringing out the speakers before a show helps immensely for the overall performance. and I've had equipment with feedback catchers and they were ok, but everyone you would hear the squeal first then it would take a second to squash it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gain:Volume
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Alan B wrote:
mightywiz wrote:
1. you need to use a 31-band eq, you can't use anything smaller and be able to knock out feedback efficiently.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just use a DBX GoRack to eliminate feedback?

yes, but it is really a band-aid for improper gain and eq setting. feedback will be essentially eliminated if the gain and eq are set properly for the room unless you exceed the spl capabilities of the room you are in.

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