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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:07 am 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
JimHarrington wrote:
Toastedmuffin wrote:
The other thing is that the pricing is starting to add up: PRIME membership


PRIME is a Phoenix program. This is SCE.


Wasn't one of the benefits of PRIME platinum access to national bookings?



8) Yet another company, just how many times is SC going to divide it's small company into more small companies? You have PEP, you have SCE, you have the original SC that became PEP. You have Kurt that is overseeing your legal circus, Jim is the General Manger in charge of sales and marketing and operations. It's no wonder this whole process looks more like the Keystone Cops than anything else. The failure of all of these efforts can be attributed to not being able to focus. Well that and a lack of resources. It would seem that the companies that are successful do one thing and they do it well. In other words all of these different memberships mean more ways to collect fees, after all anything for a buck.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:15 am 
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Quote:
The rate will depend on a lot of different factors, so I can't give a specific rate at this point.

The factors include:

How much music is being provided
Whether we or the KJ booked the show
How many shows the KJ is running (more shows = lower per-show rate)
Whether we are also supplying other equipment (sound, computing, etc.)
Whether the KJ is tying in to our marketing/promotional apparatus
What rate the KJ is getting for the show
The market for and demand for this program in the area where the KJ is operating


Ultimately, it will be a negotiated rate.


I saw the same business plan in a movie a few years ago..
About an East Coast family type deal..
They wanted to be partners with the entire neighborhood.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:19 am 
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8) Was that movie " The Godfather"?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:32 am 
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cueball wrote:
JimHarrington wrote:
The offer is open to anyone who's qualified, not just DJs. We're looking for talent of any type.


What would be the requirements to qualify?


The principal qualification is on-mic talent, although there is a lot more to it than that. There is an application process. If you're interested in the program, email customercare@soundchoice.com to start the process.

cueball wrote:
Please elaborate on these two items (from above).
1. What Marketing/Promotional apparatus are you referring to?


We have developed a detailed marketing strategy and promotional apparatus that is part of the business case we present to venues. I'm not going to get into the details of our proprietary system in a public forum, but essentially, we use our ability to interact directly with patrons to help venues market their goods and services more effectively, create "regulars," and gain insights into what their customers are looking for. This allows us (and KJs who tap into our system) to charge premium rates by delivering more value to the venues.

cueball wrote:
2. Regarding the Market and Demand for this program in the area where the KJ is operating... Are you referring to how many other DJs and/or KJs are asking to get in on this deal (of pay as you use), or are you referring to how saturated is the area for Karaoke (is this show the only show in the city, or are there 20 or 30 other shows within a 10 mile radius)?


Yes. When we have interest from talent in an area, we look at the total market for karaoke services in the area and determine whether we can effectively market our premium services in that area. We also consider how many applicants we have in a given area.

cueball wrote:
Can you give us an example of how much a KJ might expect to pay for this? How about we use this?
A KJ is operating a single rig. He is just starting out and doesn't have a library built up yet, so he needs a full core library. He wants to use your GEM series (all 6000 tracks). He has his own system/equipment put together. The KJ booked the gig on his own. It is a 4 hour show, once a week, and he has negotiated a payment of $150 for the show. What would the KJ be expected to pay for the use of the GEM series based on that?


If he's just using this program to get the music, again depending on the market, he could expect to pay between $12 and $25 per show for that music. This is, of course, subject to negotiation and additional facts not given above.

I will say that our vision for this program is not necessarily to have KJs use it to get $150/night gigs. I mean, we won't turn somebody down on that basis alone, but I don't think we're doing anyone a service by supplying low-paying gigs. Our goal is to get prices up by delivering more value than most independent KJs can deliver.

cueball wrote:
Another question... Would these payments be indefinite (sort of like renting a car, where you pay for each day of the rental (in this case, it would be for each show the set was being made available for use at)), or would the payments cease after the KJ has actually paid SCE enough money (over time), to the point where it has now equaled the amount of what it would have cost to purchase the GEM series license in the first place?


It's pay-as-you-go. Think of it like a car-sharing service. After you've paid enough to Zipcar to equal the purchase price of a car, you don't get to keep the car. The trade-off for not having the big upfront payment and the long-term contract is that you don't end up with a paid-up license. Welcome to the sharing economy.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:33 am 
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jdmeister wrote:
I saw the same business plan in a movie a few years ago..
About an East Coast family type deal..
They wanted to be partners with the entire neighborhood.


Come on. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:36 am 
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dvdgdry wrote:
What a cluster p#u@k of a business model (actually models with an 's') SCE/PEP
is creating.


So, if we have a gig in your area that we need to hire somebody to handle, at a premium rate, we should call somebody else. Got it.

dvdgdry wrote:
Publishers have already at their disposal all tracks for each and every song. Bank that, too.


You do realize that music publishers (the companies that own the compositions) and the music producers (the companies that own the sound recordings) are different entities, right?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:38 am 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
Wasn't one of the benefits of PRIME platinum access to national bookings?


It is, indeed, one of the benefits of that program. These are separate approaches.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:53 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Toastedmuffin wrote:
Wasn't one of the benefits of PRIME platinum access to national bookings?


It is, indeed, one of the benefits of that program. These are separate approaches.


I'd figure these might have worked together, being SCE and PEP are affiliated.

So, is it a case of PEP doing one set of bookings, and SCE doing a different set? It is territorial? Or will they be drawing from the same pool of gigs?

Looking forward to at least some clear direction after your trade show date, when you (hopefully) release a more detailed plan to the website(s) for review.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:38 am 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
I'd figure these might have worked together, being SCE and PEP are affiliated.

So, is it a case of PEP doing one set of bookings, and SCE doing a different set? It is territorial? Or will they be drawing from the same pool of gigs?


Only SCE books gigs. When it is deciding where to market, SCE looks at the pool of available operators, which would include PRIME members and SCE's own operators (which would be people who work for us directly as well as participants in the Free Music program). Of course, there are other factors as well, but those are important ones.

I will say that we are presently evaluating whether to keep the PRIME program as it is or go in a different direction. As we have developed our overall marketing strategy and business plan, it's not clear to us that PRIME is going to be of any use, although certain aspects of it will survive.

More generally, and not in response to ToastedMuffin's specific comments:

As we have examined the karaoke industry over the last 18 months or so, it has become clear that the main non-piracy problem that afflicts the industry is fragmentation. There are tens of thousands of individual operators, most of whom work at the margins for low pay. There are advantages to being an independent operator, to be sure, but there are a lot of disadvantages as well--low pay, lack of access to resources when things go wrong, lack of economies of scale, low barriers to entry into the industry, and so forth. What we are trying to do is to build a business case for venues and operators to do things differently. Venues--who are the primary beneficiary of the independent operator's disadvantages--will only get on board and pay more for a greater perceived value. We believe we've found a way to deliver that value. Rather than competing against independent operators for scraps--which benefits no one--our goal is to bring independent operators along with us into the new paradigm, thereby raising compensation for those operators who work with us. We recognize that effective pub entertainment requires a personal touch, so this isn't a top-down reorganization of the industry. We are simply looking to collect as many talented people as we can into our operation and to share the benefits that being bigger can bring.

No one is being compelled to come along with us. If you want to stay at whatever level where you are, working for the money you get, then that's fine with us. And we certainly don't want to be more involved in your business than you want us to be. We're simply making this available to people who are interested, and nothing more.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:39 am 
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Mr Harrington, sorry for the misstatement. Still, it does not change any outcome.

Pirates despise SCE/PEP already and youse guyse are/have slowly and surely turning/turned legit hosts against you, too. Perusing this site is pudding proof. Congratulations !

The position SCE/PEP has taken to enter into direct competition on more than one issue with legit KJs is akin to selling your Mother out. Makes me have regret of ever publicly stating your side on the issue of piracy. I should have just left you out of those conversations and interjected myself exclusively.

And wake up. You are not Americas favorite anymore. Maybe if you had produced any new music in recent years you could hang on to that statement. As a manu you have become less and less relevant weekly. I only have one guy who regularly requested SC tracks and he has quit over the past 2 years. He has gotten used to the way other manus fonts come up. That is the only difference. His anticipation of how they come up was his hangup. The manus I use are just as good as your recordings were and many times better. More and more people are not requesting oldie moldies. Funny thing how kids and generational changes take place.

Oh yeah, I would be hard pressed to enter into any agreement with you as a sub. So you did get it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:46 am 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
you are right, BUT....
the PRS For Music used to cover the U.S. and Canada, the publishers decided that they weanted more so forced the removal of these 2 countries from the agreements.
They are not pulling out of PRS For Music as far as karaoke goes, even going back in those who did pull out (no fly list is getting smaller) sothey ARE making money, and they ARE good with the money they are getting (they can opt out at any time if they feel it is not worth it) so it's just more greed on their end.
i don't have a problem with them getting paid, why i say greed is tey see that in the U.S. they have captive fish that they can gouge for whatever price they want...and will do so.
MCPS licensing was worldwide, they got paid the agreed upon rate and were happy. But suddenly someone realized they could exclude the U.S. and get more money.


A perfect example of this was Karaokemaker, who was based in Canada. They got the licenses necessary to produce a Trooper disc, which when the license expired, karaokemake tried to go back and get a new one and the copyright holder asked for DOUBLE the price they got last time. Why? Because the music producers can.

Pure greed


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:09 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:

Only SCE books gigs. When it is deciding where to market, SCE looks at the pool of available operators, which would include PRIME members and SCE's own operators (which would be people who work for us directly as well as participants in the Free Music program). Of course, there are other factors as well, but those are important ones.

I will say that we are presently evaluating whether to keep the PRIME program as it is or go in a different direction. As we have developed our overall marketing strategy and business plan, it's not clear to us that PRIME is going to be of any use, although certain aspects of it will survive.

More generally, and not in response to ToastedMuffin's specific comments:

As we have examined the karaoke industry over the last 18 months or so, it has become clear that the main non-piracy problem that afflicts the industry is fragmentation. There are tens of thousands of individual operators, most of whom work at the margins for low pay. There are advantages to being an independent operator, to be sure, but there are a lot of disadvantages as well--low pay, lack of access to resources when things go wrong, lack of economies of scale, low barriers to entry into the industry, and so forth. What we are trying to do is to build a business case for venues and operators to do things differently. Venues--who are the primary beneficiary of the independent operator's disadvantages--will only get on board and pay more for a greater perceived value. We believe we've found a way to deliver that value. Rather than competing against independent operators for scraps--which benefits no one--our goal is to bring independent operators along with us into the new paradigm, thereby raising compensation for those operators who work with us. We recognize that effective pub entertainment requires a personal touch, so this isn't a top-down reorganization of the industry. We are simply looking to collect as many talented people as we can into our operation and to share the benefits that being bigger can bring.

No one is being compelled to come along with us. If you want to stay at whatever level where you are, working for the money you get, then that's fine with us. And we certainly don't want to be more involved in your business than you want us to be. We're simply making this available to people who are interested, and nothing more.


8) Well now it's out in the open so all of the cheerleaders can see what they have been supporting. A overall plan to eliminate the individual owner operator who runs their own business and does not have to pay for the right to do so. You can spin this anyway you want to Jim but you aren't gong to be satisfied until every host in this land of ours is paying tribute to one of the SC founded companies you are running. This amounts to one giant multi rig entity being created. It is little wonder you are going after the venues if you get them in line the hosts will be forced to become part of your scheme, or they will have no place to play. You say no one is being compelled but let's face it they will have to submit or quit. You still will be using the legal process to get the hold outs to comply, which is a direct conflict of interest since you are also directly competing with all hosts legal as well as illegal. This is a betrayal of all hosts that were favorably inclined towards you. Much in the same way the Trump Health Plan hurts most the voters that supported him. I guess Chris did get ahead of the curve by licensing with you, he just saw the handwriting on the wall. I don't see how any host after all of this could still support you, they would be doing so against their own self interest. I can see why you are licensing Pirates, they make up 95% of the pool of KJ hosts, you plan on using them to run everyone else out of business. Anything for a buck. All you are doing is taking unorganized crime and turning it into a syndicate.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:18 am 
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Toastedmuffin wrote:
Well if Zoom is anything to go by... Sony/ATV and EMI withdrew their licensing in regards to their downloadable product, even though you couldn't download it in the states.

Other sites right now are as-is as far as I can tell.

Their could be a host of reasons as to why Sony/EMI pulled their catalogs from Zoom, but one thing for sure... PEP isn't now the only one with production issues.


The Sony/ATV download issue was originally going to affect all UK manufacturers, I assume Sunfly have made their own deal with Sony if they are still able to offer the tracks.

Select-A-Track have also had to withdraw the content and have a message on their website similar to the one Zoom sent out to their customers.

Select-A-Track wrote:
Digital Song Restrictions

Over the recent months we have been forced to apply restrictions on many songs due to an a announcement by the PRS (the society responsible for granting licenses & collecting/distributing royalties for song writers & publishers in the UK) informing all UK karaoke suppliers that download & streaming karaoke usage of a selection of well known song writers and any songs controlled by the Sony/ATV publishing company is no longer allowed, meaning that many songs written or performed by certain artists will no longer be available to download or sing online, so the MP3+G and MP4 download options have been removed. All songs can still currently be ordered on CDG & DVD disc.

We are in ongoing discussions with the PRS and Sony/ATV regarding our fears of the negative impact this will have on our already shrinking industry and the obvious piracy issues it will cause, and of course trying to get the songs re-instated in digital formats. We will update this page as more information becomes available.

We are very sorry for the inconvenience caused, but as a long standing and responsible PRS license holder we are bound by their terms and therefore this is totally out of our hands!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:20 am 
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Mister Harrington is nothing but a modern day Ralph Kramden. He is constantly dreaming up these off the wall get rich quick schemes and none of them ever seem to pay off. This latest ploy is nothing but his version of KJ of the Future. All you have to look at is how many average karaoke singers frequent this forum. The number is quite low. There are barely a dozen KJs that visit this site any longer and actually post anything meaningful. the average karaoke singer already has numerous places where they sing and they are quite happy with those choices. They don't care at all if the KJ is legal or not. A new venue is always a hard sell. It's hard to get people to change their singing destinations just because there is a new show in town. People go to the bar or restaurant where they know their friends are going to be. Nobody is going to change venues because the venue has a sign that says Sound Choice certified. If anything, this would deter many singers, who follow the karaoke world closely, from going there because it would be highly unlikely that this new venue would have any songs that have come out in the last seven years. Change for change sake is not always a good thing.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:24 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
A overall plan to eliminate the individual owner operator who runs their own business and does not have to pay for the right to do so. You can spin this anyway you want to Jim but you aren't gong to be satisfied until every host in this land of ours is paying tribute to one of the SC founded companies you are running. This amounts to one giant multi rig entity being created.


You certainly have a vivid imagination.

I will be satisfied when every operator who uses our music on non-original media does so on a licensed basis. It bears repeating, that we are more than happy for operators, independent or otherwise, to do any of the following:

(1) Use the original discs they bought from us;
(2) Become a licensee in order to use non-original media; or
(3) Don't use our music and trademarks.

It's really not difficult.

The Lone Ranger wrote:
It is little wonder you are going after the venues if you get them in line the hosts will be forced to become part of your scheme, or they will have no place to play.


We go after venues because they are the primary beneficiaries of piracy. And they can "get in line" the same way that operators can: Use a host who uses original discs, or use a host who's a licensee, or become a licensee, or don't allow our music and trademarks to be used. If every venue established and enforced one of those options as their policy, we would be satisfied--and yes, hosts would have to get licensed, or use original discs, or stop using the music and trademarks, or they would have no place to play.

The Lone Ranger wrote:
You say no one is being compelled but let's face it they will have to submit or quit.


No one is compelled to go through us to get work. There are plenty of gigs available for every legitimate operator, regardless of whether we're in the market or not.

The Lone Ranger wrote:
You still will be using the legal process to get the hold outs to comply, which is a direct conflict of interest since you are also directly competing with all hosts legal as well as illegal.


We will be using the legal process to get hosts and venues to comply with our policies regarding the use of our music and trademarks. That's not a conflict of interest--in fact, it's an even more compelling legal case if we're competing against non-compliant (i.e. pirate) operators.

The Lone Ranger wrote:
This is a betrayal of all hosts that were favorably inclined towards you.


If I were you, I would not deign to speak for "all hosts." We've actually had an enormous favorable response to our announcement.

The Lone Ranger wrote:
I guess Chris did get ahead of the curve by licensing with you, he just saw the handwriting on the wall. I don't see how any host after all of this could still support you, they would be doing so against their own self interest.


I'll tell you exactly the kinds of hosts who won't support us:

(1) Pirates
(2) Hosts who are afraid of changes in the industry
(3) Hosts who would rather starve alone than prosper as part of a group, and who resent having to live in a world where others prosper as part of a group

I have a feeling that Chris will do well no matter what we (SCE) do. He and I don't always see eye-to-eye on things, but as a general proposition, I believe he views our impact on his operations as somewhere between benign and beneficial. More importantly, he recognizes that changes to this industry are needed if the industry is to survive.

The Lone Ranger wrote:
I can see why you are licensing Pirates, they make up 95% of the pool of KJ hosts, you plan on using them to run everyone else out of business. Anything for a buck.


I really don't get why you think we will "run everyone else out of business." Do you really think our idea is that good, that it will catch on with venues so fiercely that operators who can't provide the services and insights we provide will be forced out of business? If so, what does that tell you about the industry as it stands today?

The Lone Ranger wrote:
All you are doing is taking unorganized crime and turning it into a syndicate.


And there we have it--the accusation of criminality. If that's not a bannable offense, I really don't know what it would take. Of course, since an admin has already expressed a similar view, I guess I know what to expect (which is to say, nothing but applause from the admins).


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8) One word describes this operational plan of yours Jim hubris. I didn't say this plan of yours as any possibility of really working, but you think it will or you wouldn't propose it. It does display where your mind set is, that you want to somehow gain control of a sizable chunk of the market, what is called, market share. Such a big slice that you are hoping to corner the market in some areas. That anyone that doesn't agree with your plan is an enemy. Actually what they are is a rival in the market place. It is a offense that requires banishment for simply stating the obvious, that you are going to be licensing former pirates and organizing them under your banner, syndicating them? As you have pointed out you are the General Manger, head of planning and marketing. Your reason for coming on here is the hawk your ideas and wares, you are advertising. I thought that people who participated in these forums were not supposed to specifically push their shows or products? It is plain that your efforts are not meant to help anyone other than the company or companies you are representing. Then you wonder why hosts oppose you, fight you with every means at their command, including boycotting your products. They realize they have to starve the beast to kill it. At least here in California you have no power, just like the Wicked Witch Of The West had no power in the Land Of The Munchkins.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:35 pm 
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I agree fragmentation is a huge issue. Specially in the pay department.

I have been fortunate enough that I have been able to buy what my business needs and still come home with a paycheck after all of the expenses of running a business.

But in regards to pay scales, there are plenty of reasons besides piracy that keep prices down in the area. One type of person holding down prices is someone doesn't "want or need" the money.

These people are the type that have a FT day job and just thought was fun to hang out and play music for a few hours and get a couple of beers plus some tips out of the deal. Or the college kid who needs to have some pocket money (I've run across both types).

One kid was getting paid $40 plus tips for the night... for a 4 hour show! I don't care if his stuff is legal or not... I can't compete with that on any level.

Venues are another reason that fragmentation exists. It's all about the bottom line... if they regularly pay $100 for the night, they won't pay more then that even if Ed Sheeran himself was hosting karaoke there.

SCE can't force venues to use their services, If a venue has a successful karaoke show, most likely they aren't going to change up to someone new or something that might cost them more. So while I hope that SCE does work hard to get everyone a fair wage in their employ, I don't know how much they are going to be able to deliver.

All that aside, it's about money. If I feel I can make more or get more work from being with SCE and not selling my soul, I'm all for it. Money talks, BullS*** walks.


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The measure of success of this plan, as with every plan put forth by PEP, is not in the revenue it will or will not generate as a program of its own, but is in its usefulness toward propping up the lawsuit engine that drives all of their revenue.

Strengthen or broaden trademark claims
Extend trademark registration protection
Strengthen federal unfair competition claims
Strengthen deceptive trade practices claims
Strengthen common law unfair competition claims

They don't need even one customer to this new plan to be able to use the existence of this plan as an argument to keep their lawsuits from being dismissed before they are settled.

It's just a web page.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:51 pm 
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earthling12357 wrote:
The measure of success of this plan, as with every plan put forth by PEP, is not in the revenue it will or will not generate as a program of its own, but is in its usefulness toward propping up the lawsuit engine that drives all of their revenue.

Strengthen or broaden trademark claims
Extend trademark registration protection
Strengthen federal unfair competition claims
Strengthen deceptive trade practices claims
Strengthen common law unfair competition claims

They don't need even one customer to this new plan to be able to use the existence of this plan as an argument to keep their lawsuits from being dismissed before they are settled.

It's just a web page.


What?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Extreme Poster

Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:26 am
Posts: 4699
Location: In your head rent-free
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I'm already being paid a premium and I don't use the brand... I don't have to pay them a dime, I don't have to do "write ups" and "take pictures" of every show, fill out forms or mail them checks and I sure and hell don't "work for them directly."

So, what's my incentive again?


Why would anyone (who is worth anything) bother with this? It's simply ANOTHER CONTRACT and a promise of more work for less money.... in exchange for a batch of oldies they can no longer even lease.

Besides, Harrington hasn't even bothered to define what "premium" pay would be... but stated $12-$25 per show goes away...

Only a newbie or an idiot would sign up for something like this.

And this is classic because Earthling hit the nail on the head:
JimHarrington wrote:
We will be using the legal process to get hosts and venues to comply with our policies...
Of course, because you can't possibly compete in this business with talent alone, you need contracts and the threat of lawsuits just to survive.

This will be the latest "PEP Lead Balloon" in terms of participation.


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