Karaoke Forums

I get those facebook notifications from Karaosoft when iCroons get updated and I've noticed a trend recently. First of all, since iCroons had to drop both select-a-track and TriceraSoft because of U.S. blocking (which I think helped lead to Tricerasoft's demise), the only two sites left are Karaoke.Net and Karaoke-Version.com. Karaoke.net hasn't had any new releases in many weeks, yet the amount of songs Karaoke-Version is adding to their catalog is mind boggling. The most recent update (which was only a week since the last one) show 655 new songs IN ONE WEEK!

http://icroons.com/index.aspx?view=newreleases


I also noticed that they are really aggressively going after multiple markets in many languages. They've always had English songs, and also French (which makes sense because they are in France), but now you're starting to see a push into every language in Europe and they're adding songs to their catalog at a pace I've never seen from any manufacturer.

Why aren't karaoke.net and others adding songs at this pace? Is this still an issue with the publishing rules in this country? If so, that old question of "who will replace Sound Choice?" has already been answered and the French are winning.

I did notice that Karaoke.net offers an update with their latest hits available through KJAMS software.

Why doesn't i-croons add the other US download manus available while we're at it? Links to available Digitrax and All Star tracks and now Sunfly US?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Well in my opinion it's several factors.
1. Karaoke version is more established by the simple virtue that they have been around longer. Karaoke.net may be backed by KSF which is international, but the website has only been up for less than a year

As a corrilary, karaoke.net has a huge back catalog that they are trying to legally put up while at the same time trying to balance making new music that takes both time and huge amounts of money.

Karaoke version has no such restrictions. There enire back catalog is already paid for and licenced, which means they can focus the majority of their resources on new production.

2. Licensing in the US & Canada is a pain in the arse process that takes more resources, time and money and until the laws catch up, that's the way it's going to be

3. Since karaoke.net was designed to be a US licensed site, it may not have as wide a user base as Karaoke Version.

-James

I've asked and they say that only karaoke.net and karaoke-version are the only remaining sites (not blocked in the U.S.) that have affiliation programs that allow other companies to link to their tracks and their entire catalog in real time. Those affiliation programs also pay affiliates a percentage of tracks sold through those links. So, I'm guessing those other manus don't want to do that for one reason or another. I also guess they don't want their tracks listed side by side with their competitors, which begs the question "why not?". Karaosoft reported that iCroons is the number one affiliate for karaoke-version, so if it's bringing them that many more sales, I don't see why the others wouldn't want more sales too.

The affiliation programs are all listed on their web sites and usually give all the details. TriceraSoft (before it went down) was paying 10 cents per song. Select-a-track pays 15% per song. Karaoke-Version has a sliding scale between 10% and 12%. Karaoke.Net is the only one who doesn't publicly disclose info about their affiliation program, but I'm guessing it's somewhere in that same range. Karaoke.net was late in getting on iCroons because of this. Evidently they contacted karaosoft to let them know that they had an affiliation program because it wasn't publicly disclosed. Basically, someone needs to convince the other guys that it would be in their best interest to have affiliation programs. Not just for iCroons inclusion, but for any other company that wants to help them sell karaoke tracks. Kind of a no-brainer to me. I've contacted a couple of them with no luck, but I'm sure it will take quite a few requests before they see a need for it. It's not like Karaoke-Version or karaoke.net are going to contact their competitors and say "Hey, you should do this, it's making us more money". Welcome to the secretive world of capitalism.

Bob has made it clear that he'll include "any legal site with an affiliation program", but that he's "not a salesman by nature" (big surprise) and doesn't actively try to talk these companies into it. Like I said, karaoke.net wouldn't be included on iCroons if a user hadn't contacted karaoke.net about it. In other words, it's our job as the consumer if we want to see it happen.

While I definitely see the benefit to having a single source to find tracks, I have a fundamental issue with it being iCroons at this point.

Too many instances of Bob being a dick to people for me to continue to provide revenue to Bob out of convenience of having a single source.

I use iCroons as an initial search engine only. I find tracks on iCroons then go directly to the manu site. I do not use the affiliate links to purchase tracks.

If I don't find on iCroons then I go to KV directly. If I don't find on KV, I go to the UK sites and K.Net. It doesn't cause me enough grief to do multiple searches for me to need to have all the tracks in one place.

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-Chris

Icroons is a nice search tool. They should add all the Digital Libraries:

PY karaoke
Big Hits karaoke
All Star karaoke
SBI
Mr. Entertainer
Sunfly digital library
Sing To The World
Zoom digital library

There are others but now-a days with the Buy and download options one can make a small fortune with a karaoke search engine using all digital libraries and affiliate program with all the manufacturers... (hint Hint!!)

A simple PHP search engine script with store features and even Paypal integration. Hmmmm... sounds like a small winter project I should work on.

Paypal integration? That's handled on the download sites themselves. Nobody Paypals money to a search engine. People pay the sites that sell the songs, and they send you a commission. That's how commissions work.

I think it was explained that those download sites cannot be added due to not being allowed or flat out blocked for download in the US!
And i-croons is a very small tool as far as showing availability goes. Musicbookdeluxe shows FAR more as far as what has been done/released (on disc) for karaoke history but doesn't show much in the way of download sites. icroons ONLY shows 2 download sites, even though there are more in the US.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Honestly I don't think i've ever used the affiliate link directly, I use it as a quick search, if it shows up, I go to the site directly as well. Not because of anything other than I am going to the site anyway, may as well go direct - I have all the sites I buy from on the link bar in my browser. I should actually set up my own affiliate site, then if I buy from my link, i'll get a percentage back!

I knew it was an affiliation (pay per click/or buy) deal (each song link has an affiliate tag at the end of it), there is no real interest in actually helping kj's find songs that are actually available unless he gets money for the purchase so why list everything. And for him to say that the other US sites don't offer it, not true - Karaoke Cloud does.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

what others are there?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Not the same type of affiliate program. In fact, they don't even publicly list any info about their affiliate program that describes anything close to what the others are doing, and I'm sure there's a reason for that. Also, Karaosoft made iCroons in 2012 after returning from that karaoke summit in Nashville where digitrax was trying to push the karaoke cloud on the rest of the industry. iCroons was basically his response to their music rental service, and he publicly said so, saying that karaoke music should be owned, not rented. Needless to say, Bob doesn't seem to agree with their business model and even if they did have a similar affiliate arrangement, I doubt he'd be willing to help them sell anything. If there are 2 karaoke businesses that will never work together, it's Karaoke Cloud and Karaosoft.

Personally, I think that's a good thing that not all the companies agree. Having everyone on the same page about everything stunts innovation. Imagine if Apple and Microsoft had worked together on the same stuff since the 80s. We wouldn't have seen half of the innovation since then. The iPhone and iPad probably wouldn't even exist.

It's the publishers having different rules in different countries that is the problem. If it weren't for that, iCroons would still have 4 download sites catalogued instead of just 2 now. iCroons has been updating their archive records. I noticed the entire GEM series is now catalogued, when previously it only had the diamond series. I've personally submitted a few songs that they didn't previously have catalogued, so they will add any missing tracks if you provide them and prove they exist. Most of the records that are missing are for tracks that are virtually impossible to acquire anymore and obviously no one is coming forward with proof that they exist. If you have old tracks that aren't catalogued, then why aren't you helping the situation by providing us with your "complete" database, or submit it to the sites that have databases?

I made the suggestion that Karma would be better if all those codecs were built in and now they are. I'm not saying I'm the only one to suggest it, but I'm also not just sitting back and complaining to everyone else, without trying to make it better. Lonman, if you know of tracks that are obtainable and aren't helping improve their archive catalog, then you're part of the problem, not the solution. You've been saying for years how you can do it better, well, put your money where your mouth is and create a site like iCroons and prove to us that you can do it better. I think we all know that's not going to happen, so why not help us all and submit your rare tracks to the sites that do catalog them? Oh, that's right, you don't like Bob. Well sunshine, I don't like you, and I'm not alone. Most people don't like complainers. Bob at least works at this stuff, and has been for years. However, he's not doing it alone. People like myself help fill in the gaps. People like you are only good at noticing the gaps. There's a big difference.

Lonnie is one of the more respectful KJ's I have ever come across, so your attack on him is pretty silly.

Besides, if Bob feels entitled to (@$%&#!) out his paying customers without cause, then Lonnie and others have every right to complain about whatever they like.

Bob is a dick. Why would anyone want to help him for any reason knowing that any suggestions he may implement, could possibly be met with him bitching you out later on?

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-Chris

I use to make lots of suggestions to Bob...... until he bit my head off about trying to buy a Karma license for someone else using my credit card. My desire to be helpful is gone, gone, gone.

If he would be man enough to apologize then I would gladly go back to being helpful, but I figure I've only got about 25 years left and I don't think that will be enough time for Bob to "see the light".

Half this forum is bitching about something on a daily basis, and not just about Bob, and they're doing it publicly. At least when Bob has a problem with someone, it's done in a private message. I don't ever recall him publicly complaining about anyone. So you guys can publicly complain about him, and use it as your excuse to not help in any efforts that help us all, yet he isn't publicly complaining and isn't using any excuses to keep working on this stuff, a lot of which doesn't make him any money. Those archive records on iCroons don't make them a cent. It's for all of us. If you send him a set of old songs to have them included in the archive database, he'll take the time to add them, and doesn't get a penny in return. The people it helps are the rest of us. Maybe someone will see a song that they didn't know ever existed, and might get lucky on an internet search and find a rare copy. How does this help Bob or Karaosoft? It doesn't. It helps the karaoke community as a whole.

I just find your excuses rather unfounded. Look, I think the next president is a dick, but it doesn't give me an excuse to stop helping out my fellow citizens just because I don't like who's in charge.

and Chris, if Lonnie is so "respectful", why doesn't he respect all the KJs who would like him to help out instead of complaining? Exactly who is he respecting? He's "selectively" respecting people, and that's no different than anyone else here, so let's stop with the charade. Stop making everything about Bob and turning every conversation in that direction. This is discussion about accurate karaoke databases and people helping make that happen. Taking it to the "I'm not doing it because I don't like that person" really isn't helping anyone, and it's starting to sound like a broken record. Yes, we all get it. You don't like Bob. Did you not think we heard you the first 20 times you said it? For the majority of us who've never had a problem with the guy, it's getting old. I got over my first marriage faster than you are getting over Bob insulting you, and I didn't spend the following years complaining to everyone about her. Get over it. Move on. Use your other products and be happy. In the meantime, the rest of us have many other things to discuss without always being interrupted with your elementary school level vendettas getting in the way. Stay on topic.

...and see this is where you complainers and the rest of us differ. First, you say you used to make lots of suggestions. That means you've had multiple communications with him that went fine. Where it went south, as they usually do, is when you asked Bob to go out of his way to change the name on a license for you. You could have just bought the license without needing him. Their web site is a virtual vending machine and doesn't require assistance to purchase anything. So let's get the facts straight. Bob didn't bite your head off for buying someone a license with your credit card, because lets be honest, he has nothing to do with the transaction and his assistance is not required. So, basically, you asked him to go out of his way to do something for you, and because he declined, the guy doesn't "see the light" that mrmarog should have all of his needs catered to? Am I getting this correctly?

I guess I don't see this mysterious "light" you're referring to either. He's changed a license name for me once, but did let me know not to take it for granted in the future. I later came to "see the light" with respect to the license name really not being that relevant because it's not. They like license names to be traceable to the original credit card holder and I get that. I also get that asking to change the name is asking someone to go out of their way, and sometimes in life, people don't have the time to go out of their way for you, and if they don't, they surely don't owe you an apology because they didn't have time to do something for you. I've read enough conversations with Bob to know that I'm sure there was a point where he politely told you that he wasn't going to do it, and then there was a point where you acted like he should, and that's when he told you to F off, when in fact, you should have got the hint the first time. They are virtually all the same. If you feel it went differently, than please post the conversation and let us decide for ourselves.

It still doesn't change the fact you asked him to go out of his way for you and your real anger is that he didn't. Whether he turned you down politely or impolitely isn't really what matters, is it? You feel he owed you something. It's rather evident in your remark that he now owes you an apology, and you feel that he will truly "see the light" when he understands that mrmarog SHOULD be catered to. I think it's clear who the self centered person is in this equation.

mrmarog, let me ask you this. In all those times that you previously communicated with Bob, and he took his time to answer your questions or take your suggestions, how many times did you go out of your way for him? I'm guessing none. Where does your logic conclude that he owes you any out of the ordinary favors? ...or any favors for that matter? He's not your friend and isn't supposed to be. When you buy a license for software, that's what you're buying. You get support and questions answered, but to think that your money also purchased his friendship and out of the ordinary favors is rather delusional. Sure you can hide this delusion by pointing the finger at the person who didn't cater to you, but what does that say about you? To those of us who know that Bob is only selectively offensive to people (as we all are), we've only seen evidence that his attitude goes south when people have these delusional expectations of him owing them more than just the license and support they paid for. Meanwhile, those of us who are respectful of his time seem to have no problems with him. Now, explain to me what it is about you that is so special? I'd really like to know. Are you implying that those of us who respect his time are somehow weak people who aren't getting all we can out of someone?

LOL, I help many a kj find tracks "sunshine"! And have for years as well.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

That may be true, but unfortunately there's no LonmanTrackFinder.com

How are my vocalizations any different than 10 years of anti-SC rhetoric? But you are tired of my complaining about Bob? Which, contrary to your claim, has only been going on infrequently for less than a year.

I am helping the karaoke community by warning them about how Bob treats his customers. I would rather not see someone invest in his products without knowing they might end up on Bob's bad side for no legitimate reason other than Bob was having a bad day when you sent him a simple tech support question.

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-Chris

Unfortunately, you are wrong.

I will be happy to post the entirety of my exchange with Bob for everyone to see where I asked a simple question and - *without warning* - was insulted.

None of us are special. You just haven't pissed off Bob yet. It may never happen and you may be able to defend him indefinitely (just as I did). But if the day comes that he does bite your head off, I would like to see how you actually respond to it. Especially if you have >$1000 invested in his software *and* knowing he has rescinded licenses on people in the past.

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-Chris