Karaoke Forums

OK this is officially the strangest thread I have ever seen on this forum. For the past three years I have been working with a small team of developers to create a software product for djs to run game nights in bars and restaurants. I only have about 5 users, aside from my 8 djs and I can't imagine not listening to my users or taking suggestions to make the product better.

I'm a multiple license holder of karma,kj file manager and song book creator. I've had a few problems from time to time, but nothing I didn't eventually figure out.

This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with how sensitive a person may or not be. It's about the right to expect a basic level/standard of support when you decide to give them your business. That means 100% of the people who buy bob's products should be getting prompt, courteous tech support. And they are not.

I don't care how much of an (@$%&#!) a person is being, Mr. Latshaw should not have the right to take a person's license away just because he doesn't like what they are saying. When he did that it doesn't matter what argument you use, he was the who was being over-sensitive and needs to grow a set.

Take some advice from your own words and stop being a douchebag.

-James

I didn't create the app because "he didn't like my idea". I was already working on the app before I made the suggestion to Bob.

I created it to provide *me* with a configuration that *I* wanted. I wanted to track singers per venue, provide different libraries per venue, and have reporting on a per venue basis. Bob may not see the value in tracking venues discreetly but I do. Of course Bob isn't a karaoke host either so I don't expect him to fully understand our needs. But, as a businessman, he shouldn't dismiss our suggestions just because he doesn't like them or see value in them. That is poor business decision making.

Bob can change the database all he wants. The app will still work. In fact, it works with the old XML based version as well as the current Access DB version.

Anything else you want to debate or grief me about?

_________________
-Chris

Yes, in fact, there is. You can't seem to make a comment without something about it not making sense, and this last one is no exception.

1. You say you were already working on this app "before" you suggested it to Bob. That makes no sense at all. Who would start work on an app add-on and then suggest it to the app creator, which in turn would make all of that work for nothing? Not that this matters or has anything to do with the discussion, but its just one more thing that doesn't add up.

2. You say you made just it for yourself and your needs, yet you gave at least one copy to someone else who could use it, and came here to publicly tell others about it. Was your intention to tell all of them to F off and that it was only for you? That too doesn't make sense.

3. As a business man, that IS his job to filter the suggestions and NOT use them all. If your business model were the norm in this world, my iPhone would have the memory slot most people wanted from day one. Customers don't always get what they want. It's just a fact, and the evidence is all around you, yet you ignore it and expect the normal ways of the world to bend for you alone. ...and you call Bob arrogant?

4. You use the fact that Bob isn't a full time KJ as some evidence that he has no clue about what they need and that he listens to none of them. He listens to many, and from early on, most of them are here in Baltimore, and their names are listed on the web site. You're just mad because he doesn't listen to EVERY KJ, which conveniently includes you. I know for a fact that he used to listen to you and had some respect for your views, but evidently that changed, and not so coincidently you don't want to share with us whatever it is that you said to him to change that view.

5. "Grief me about"? Grief is a noun, not a verb, but just to word things in a way that you'll understand, I'll "grief" you as long as you keep making comments that don't make sense, especially on a thread I started that was intended to discuss a completely different topic.

Bob accepts all suggestions like any other company, and just like every other company, he does NOT use them all. No company does and you can't either. There's a difference between "listening" (as you say) to your users and doing everything they say. If one of your users said the color of the app should be pink, and another says it should be blue, by your logic, you're not "listening" to at least one of them. Can you "imagine" it now?

The timeline doesn't have to make sense to you. However, I will note this, in reviewing other emails with Bob, I stumbled on one from October of 2013 where I asked him "Will there be any multi-venue support added? (as in keeping singers and song history for different venues independent of each other)". I suppose that question could also be counted as a suggestion. In a follow-up email, I let Bob know I was going to be working on some reporting utilities. I even called it an "'add-on' of sorts". Unlike your response, Bob was keen to the idea. (unless you are Bob and you simply forgot in which case I suggest you go back and look at our email conversations).

(note - the *this* in the first line of my email refers to content in a previous response from Bob. Again, respectful of private conversations)






Things don't seem to make sense to Bob either, yet others find value in them. Is that also an east coast affliction?

I looked for a post here where I announced this particular app publicly and could not find one. I am not saying I didn't do so, but I don't recall doing so and I could not find a post about it. If you know where it is, please link for reference. Otherwise, assume I am telling you to F off.



Again, your misunderstanding of my motives and desire to create is clouding your ability to form a reasonable argument. I don't need the world (or Bob) to bend to my will. I can and have worked around both.



You know for a fact? How is that exactly? Did Bob have a private conversation with you about the private conversation he and I have had?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

_________________
-Chris

When you're at a gig and the bar owner kicks out a drunk for not liking what they said, and then bans them, how is that any different?

Software is licensed, not owned. He has every legal right just like every other software company. Google it. Microsoft has revoked millions of licenses for things as little as using them too much. The only Karaosoft license revoked that I personally know of is for a Baltimore KJ who was a pirate and thief and screwing over other KJs as well. We literally applauded him for doing it and stood behind him 100%.

I'm sure every case is different, but just because you hear of someone getting their license revoked, doesn't mean it came out of nowhere, but just like the Baltimore KJ, unless you know the complete context, you're only hearing one side.

Karaokelan, You are the Josh Earnest of Bob Latshaw's world. You are able to spin the facts in ways that most of us would find impossible. Do you do his laundry too, and darn his socks? Are you his evil twin? As you say (I think you said it) "something doesn't add up".

You keep mentioning that others can see from what I write that I am not making sense, yet there has not been a single person "like" any posts of yours in this entire thread. Your defense of his very unprofessional behavior is also hard to understand, but if you drink from the same water supply that could explain it.

Bob has created some very fine software and I am very appreciative of his skill and accomplishments, you have created nothing and act as if you have. If you are not Bob then stop this crap you have been spewing and let him do it personally...if he cares to.

Ps If Bob wants to come back on the forum and push his software I am sure KS would be happy to have him as a paying sponsor.

KaraokeIan - You are one person. If there were multiple people complaining, I may feel like it was necessary to continue this dialog and provide more context and proof. But as it stands, it seems to only be important to you. Not worth my effort.

As noted, some people have claimed that you are in fact, Bob. I have been a skeptic up to this point simply because I don't think Bob is capable of keep himself reigned in on a public forum. I think Bob would lose his temper. You have come close, but not quite. But you still exhibit some Bob-like qualities in your posts which are now causing me to believe you just might be Bob.

Your pursuit of this calls into question your motives. Why is it important to you that I prove anything? And why is it this specific thing that you want me to prove? If you are not Bob, then why is it so important to you? If it is just generally "important", why are you the only one griefing me about it?

So here is my theory....

You are in fact Bob, and because you already know what is in the email thread, you are just waiting for it to be posted so you can pick it apart - just like you are doing with everything else I am posting regarding this.

True or not, you are still the only one pushing this. When a combination of more people and those who's opinion I care about chime in, I will feel compelled to follow through.

Until then.....

_________________
-Chris

You obviously ignored the part where I said JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE WHAT A PERSON SAYS. Granted, I don't have any first hand knowledge, but the person I am talking about posted emails AND receipts on this form. Given the nature of the complaints I have read about, it seem to fit the profile of a narcissistic egomanic who when he didn't like the way people were playing as a child, they'd get in a snit and take their ball and leave so no one could play. Or to put it in the words of Cartman "Screw you guys, i'm going home"

Don't get me wrong, i think Bob is a software genius. There is absolutely no denying that the man makes EXCELLENT software. KJ File manager is probably the best thing to have ever happened to this industry since it started to go digital and everyone who hosts should use it.

If someone's license got reovoked due to a GOOD reason, like Piracy i would be shouting praises from the rooftops, just like everyone else.. That kind of thing needs to happen more often.

I personally don't care what anyone says about me, but I believe NO ONE has the right to be a douchebag towards other people, no matter how well deserved. That's something MY parents taught me, and it's called "The Golden Rule" which maybe is something that your parents and Mr. Latshaw's should have instilled in both of you.

Peace Out

-James

If Bob were here I wouldn't need to defend him and it's not specifically him I'm defending. I'm defending every business owner who knows they don't have to take crap from people just because they bought something from their store or bar or whatever. It's easy to say things "about" people that you wouldn't yourself say to them directly. My point above about bar owners having the right to kick people out is a good example. I'd bet any amount of money you wouldn't say a thing to the bar owner of your own gig if he or she threw someone out. Even if you told a story like that here, it's not like the bar owner is suddenly going to join this forum just to debate you on something they already know they have a right to do.

The part I have a problem with is how no one here seems to be skeptical of random claims. Chris's claim is a perfect example. He claims one thing, promises to prove it, then backtracks completely. You're implying that I should let it go and just let people say what they want without demanding proof. The wild claims and lies here are boundless and some people like myself enjoy pointing that out once in a while. Someone has to keep you in check. You yourself just claimed that I act like I've created software myself, yet you show no proof or quote any single sentence I've written that backs that up. It's like you literally believe that all you need to do is say something and people will just believe it. I hate to break it to you, but that's not how the world works. Yes, most claims on this board go unchallenged and the only ones that are, are usually so blatantly obvious. A lot of KNFs posts as one example. It's the ones that don't seem to require proof that seem to go unchecked over and over.

As far as Karaosoft advertising here again, I don't see that happening. Especially after I informed Bob that this forum harbors people who are pirating his stuff and bragging about it here. Some of you may have seen the thread I posted about that recently. Unfortunately, they deleted the thread so I can't link you to it, but that's another example of this forum showing no interest in protecting its sponsors or the businesses that make up the karaoke industry. If the users and the forum itself never take a stand for the businesses, who will?

If you really pay attention to the numbers, you'd realize that the amount of people who read these threads outnumbers the amount of people who post in them by a large margin. In other words, you're trying to assume that everyone agrees with you because they haven't clicked like on my posts. Most people on this forum never click like or ever say a word. They just read.

For people like you who want to join in on the conversation, I would expect you to have some valid points to backup your position, instead of just saying "no one likes your posts". That in no way proves that my points aren't valid. To me it says that they surely must be if that's all you can come back with. Also, the majority of people are consumers and not business owners and of course would side with the "the customer is always right" philosophy. My parents own a business. Every bar owner I've worked for owns a business and I've been around the block enough to know that the customer is NOT always right. I'm sure most of you have seen a bar owner through someone out and didn't have a problem with it because you saw first hand that customers can indeed cross a line and that they're not always right. As a consumer though, you shift position and expect businesses to treat you like you are always right. I do take a different position. As a consumer, I know I'm not always right and I don't treat businesses or their owners like I do. If you really pay attention, what I'm actually doing to basically trying to teach you how to NOT be that person who gets kicked out of a bar or banned from Karaosoft. The response I'm getting is that some of you feel you deserve to be treated kindly without having to do it yourself, and yes, I think that's very messed up. It's a double standard and lots of you have it. I realize I'm outnumbered but that doesn't scare me or make me want to go away. I'm just very confident in my beliefs and I want to keep going because I want you all to keep repeating that you think it's ok to say and do what you want and I want you all to keep trying to defend that stance, because I know that position will eventually crack under it's own weight once you start seeing what you're actually trying to say.

I'm not the one hijacking this thread. I started this thread and it wasn't about Karaosoft at all. You and a few others decided to hijack it and take it down a different direction and now are claiming that you don't want to hear what I have to say. Of course you don't. You don't like Karaosoft or Bob. That's fine, but start your own thread. If you are going to bring it here, stop acting like the moment you take the conversation is in different direction is the moment you take control of this thread. It doesn't work that way. If known pirates who want to destroy businesses are allowed to flourish here and endlessly speak, then surely people who want to protect them are allowed to as well.

I think we need to use more accurate words other than "douchebag". Let be honest, there isn't a human alive that is actually a plastic bag full of vinegar and water. What we are talking about is someone saying words to another person that they find offensive. Once again, I will revert to the bar owner kicking out the belligerent drunk scenario because we're all KJs and should have seen this happen at some point.

You say that no one has a right to be offensive, "no matter how well deserved". So, in the bar scenario, exactly how is someone going to be kicked out of a bar without finding it offensive? "Sir, pardon me, it's come to my attention that your behavior is unacceptable with the current clientele. Would you please come with me so that we can find you an establishment that is more conducive to your liking?"

I think we all know that's not how it happens or ever would happen. If you owned a bar and were ever in that scenario, you'd learn real fast that sometimes kindness does not work at all and there are indeed times that people do deserve to be offended and it is completely acceptable. Tell me this. When someone is kicked out of a bar and most of the people are cheering as it happens, are you the lone person who stops the bar owner and tells him that he shouldn't offend ANYONE? I doubt it. It's far easier to say it here on this forum, isn't it? It just doesn't hold up in the real world.

Bob, I may not be a fan of, but Karaosoft and the products are 'A' Number One. I would like you to show me where I ever said that I don't like Bob, and in particular Karaosoft. Disapproving of his actions does not equate to disliking.

Now you are beginning to piss me off

Guilty as charged to my part in perpetuating a hijacking.


As to the part about 'unsubstantiatd claims" if it was ONE negative comment or claim, I would absolutely agree. But when 12 people start to claim the same thing I would say that the likelyhood of it being true goes up exponentially.

A basic business principle is that for every 1 unhappy customer that complains, there are probably a dozen or more others who just didn't bother.

Or to put it another way. A happy customer will tell a few people about the wonderful new product they bought.

A pissed off, unhappy customer will tell EVERYONE they come in contact with about how they were treated and/or got screwed

-James

I think that Bob1 and Bob2 need to relax for a bit..

If the site Admins wish to continue beating this dead horse,
they can unlock it.