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Legal issues of private P2P file swapping
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Author:  Guest [ Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Legal issues of private P2P file swapping
Hello,

Recently I had the idea I would install a home file server and distribute MP3+G files over it.

But I thought better of it cause it's become a really hot issue.

So, I started investigating the legal side of it. I discovered that file swapping is a fast change legal battle ground and what you CAN do today, might be no-no tomorrow. It's a moving target, if you will.

Anyway, I then got this idea.....If a group were to form a collective, and that group pooled their money and purchased music, then they would all be joint owners of same and share the right to use that music within the collective...as the collective is legally considered "1"...not a group, but an individual.

The property of the collective is jointly owned by all in the collective. Just like you and your wife share joint ownership and use of the family car. Or a group of business partners share rights to use of and ownership of all property owned by the partnership.

So I presented my idea to a group of lawyers......(I'm a moderator on a large legal forum) They are presently mulling it over.

My idea was: What if me and several others formed a collective and pooled our money and then bought music, and then we placed it on a server where we each could have access to it. If the server and music were jointly owned and access to it tightly restricted, then would it be legal?

I'll let you know what they say.

Before you scream, let me remind you that this is already being done in a similar fashion. Many modern clubs already have juke boxes that are connected to a central file server.

Instead of 200 CD's in a single stand-alone machine, you have a computer screen and many thousands of songs to select from off the central server. The server is located many, many miles away and connected to countless local juke boxes. When you pay and make your selection, it is delivered to just your location.

Wake up folks!...Karaoke might soon be served this exact same way and perhaps over the same server network that the juke boxes presently use.

Your gigs might be history soon.

That's why I'm investigating this.

Please share with us your ideas on the subject. Do you see yourself being forced out by big business and replaced by a coin operated karaoke juke box?
Author:  Lonman [ Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
I myself, wouldn't trust an internet connection for a nightly show. I've seen even some of the best servers get hacked or virused where it filters down to your computer to mess up your hard drive. If this ever became a standard, you gotta know there WILL be companies with the technological know how to seek out (even through firewalls) IP addresses & screw with your hard drive & pretty much screw you!!!!
Nope, i'll stick with cd's for now. Not to say I won't go to hard drive one of these days, with the ever changing world of discs becoming obsolete, this is starting to look mighty promising, but for right now, i'll stay out of the internet side of it!
Author:  Guest [ Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:26 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree Lonman,

For the very same reasons.......

But what is gonna happen when you set up one night and notice that the owner has installed a web served juke box?....You know that not long after that happens, and as soon as that same company starts offering web karaoke over the juke box, they will offer it to bars that already have their web juke boxes installed. It might be for a small additional charge, or be offered as a package deal.

We already see more and more bars buying their own karaoke systems and attempting to host karaoke from behind the bar. Some that don't wish the equipment was cheaper and less complicated....This karaoke/music juke box will be exactly what they want.

I predict that the scene will change to where the little guy with the car trunk sized system and small song library will be history-replaced by the juke box, but the larger shows with faithful audiences will get bigger.

The savy bar owners know you can't beat a good karaoke host with good equipment, but I ain't met that many savy bar owners. Most are rather tight with their money. Many will at least try the juke box.
Author:  ritisroo [ Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:30 am ]
Post subject: 
I don't think that a karaoke "HOST" will ever be replaced. You will always need someone to moderate the show, which singers come up, to work the sound system, etc. etc.

The bars may buy their own systems, but they will still, in my opinion, need a host to run the show. I would have no problem in using the bars equipment to host a show, less lugging around for me to do. If they supplied their own equipment that would be great.

I think that karaoke, wheather you use CD's or some internet box, will never replace the good hosts that we have today who fix your sound, talk to you, give away prizes, make the show exiciting.

If there was karaoke hosted by some internet box, I think I would rather spend the $70 - $100 to rent a machine for the night, invite all my friends over, and have a free night of karaoke my way, using the money I probably would have spent at the bar anyway, and this way, at least I am not having to inhale smoke all night. Plus, I have my own CD+G's, so even if the rented machine does not offer all I want, I have my own stuff at home (At least rent till I have the $$ To buy my own good stuff).

That is my opinion anyway :)
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:47 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah as a singers point of view, I don't think i'd go to a show with a system like that. Part of karaoke IS the host, not only can they make or break a show, dial in your sound, but they talk to you & interact. If these jukebox systems ever got big, I seriously believe that karaoke as we know it would pretty much die. The crowds would wither away & the bars wouldn't need to worry about hosting from a bar, there wouldn't be any need for it - no people!
Any bar that got one, would pretty much be cutting their own throat!
Author:  knightshow [ Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 
I hate being too dependant on web technology... it's too easy to disrupt.

Computers have hard drives, they can crash. Or other hardware / software glitches.

We gig runners have amps and players... they too can crash...

the further I go down the ol' example chain, the harder it is to show equipment failure.

I prefer to keep technology at my beck and call, but not DEPENDANT on another source to give it to me.

For instance, I have a backup hard drive in case my primary one goes T.U.!!

matt
Author:  Guest [ Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:02 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with all your replies, but

Consider this:

Let's say you own a large karaoke business with several hosts out there.

This server concept might be just what you need. Your hosts will tote in some powered speakers and mics, a laptop and song books. Then he will connect to the server and have access to countless music files.

The song books will contain lots of selections with a note on each page reminding the singers that many more are not listed, but possibly available, just ask the host to check the server.

The laptop will contain a decent library of selections to use as back-up if server coms were to fail.

The server can support many selections at the same time, even playing the same songs at different locations.

This will allow the owner to maintain just one library, therefore it can't help but grow quickly when compared to trying to maintain many hosts librarys.

Also, the hosts could connect from home or even durring the show and up the their laptop library.

Le'ts say one host is preparing for a wedding this weekend. He can connect to the server from anywhere and download all music appropriate to that gig.

Another might need to host a large graduation party requiring hot dance music. He can get it quickly off the server from a great distance.

Hosts will no longer be required to travel as often to the owner for music. Owner will be free from the laborous task of printing and distributing song books, the hosts can get it off the server and print it himself.
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Still there are too many risks involved. Main one being viruses that will kill the computer that is downloading or erase the hard drive. You cannot stop someone determined to load a virus on a server that will filter down to all the computers that are accessing at the time - it's a game for hackers & if this took off, you darn well that some of computer savvy karaoke host that knows how to program, that may have lost a job to one of these types of systems will be creating a virus to send on through - it will happen. You can get a firewall, but even these aren't completely failsafe & some types of files won't play or download correctly if a firewall is working.
Then you have files that aren't complete (you did originally open this thread with P2P file sharing). I used to download from Napster before finding out it was a no-no. But in the time I did, some files were not complete or the wrong version or wrong song entirely that was mislabled. Then you have sound quality issues, the more compressed, the crappier the sound or they might be bigger files with crappy sound as well. Bigger files are generally better as a rulle, but will still take a couple of minutes to download. Even if they were on a stream basis, it's only as good as your connection. i have broadband at home & sometimes I get buffering problems while streaming which will stop the song & have to rebuffer to catch up - this would be pretty useless in a karaoke show. The more people that are on at certain times of days will slow down the connection time as well.
Author:  knightshow [ Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Keith01 wrote:
Let's say you own a large karaoke business with several hosts out there.

This server concept might be just what you need. Your hosts will tote in some powered speakers and mics, a laptop and song books. Then he will connect to the server and have access to countless music files.

The song books will contain lots of selections with a note on each page reminding the singers that many more are not listed, but possibly available, just ask the host to check the server.

The laptop will contain a decent library of selections to use as back-up if server coms were to fail.

The server can support many selections at the same time, even playing the same songs at different locations.

This will allow the owner to maintain just one library, therefore it can't help but grow quickly when compared to trying to maintain many hosts librarys.

Also, the hosts could connect from home or even durring the show and up the their laptop library.

Le'ts say one host is preparing for a wedding this weekend. He can connect to the server from anywhere and download all music appropriate to that gig.

Another might need to host a large graduation party requiring hot dance music. He can get it quickly off the server from a great distance.

Hosts will no longer be required to travel as often to the owner for music. Owner will be free from the laborous task of printing and distributing song books, the hosts can get it off the server and print it himself.


Okay, let me address this:

You're trying to accomplish TWO things in one step, and this is the problem with the convienience of modern technology... and why the manufacturers hate it so much! LOL!

If you're going to have MULTIPLE hosts running off the same library at the same time, then you have to work out some kind of streaming license... or some what that you are PURCHASING an additional library for every system in use. Just because you CAN stream them like this doesn't give you the right to do so. This is no better than making ten copies of your library and having each host have a copy of the library... the manufactrers are getting ripped off either way. If you have multiple locations streaming from the same source, that's only ONE legit library. IF it's legit!!!

Small wonder why most have the "no copy or conversion" rule.

Likewise I run off copies... but I only have one set. I'm only running one gig. I'm currently trying to acquire a second library for my second system.

The legal way.

Matt
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
knightshow wrote:
If you're going to have MULTIPLE hosts running off the same library at the same time, then you have to work out some kind of streaming license... or some what that you are PURCHASING an additional library for every system in use. Just because you CAN stream them like this doesn't give you the right to do so. This is no better than making ten copies of your library and having each host have a copy of the library... the manufactrers are getting ripped off either way. If you have multiple locations streaming from the same source, that's only ONE legit library. IF it's legit!!!

Likewise I run off copies... but I only have one set. I'm only running one gig. I'm currently trying to acquire a second library for my second system.

The legal way.

Matt


Good point! Didn't even think of the multiple host off one library scenerio.

My 2nd system is completely different than my first as well & not nearly as large. I could make copies of my first library & use it in the second, but I am also building it the legal way.
Author:  Adam [ Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:32 am ]
Post subject: 
I think your idea would definitely be illegal if you had no mechanism for restricting multiple locations from playing the same song at the same time.
Author:  ambientrooster [ Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legal issues of private P2P file swapping
I attended one of theses "cloud shows" last night. Took the guy 9 min to get a version from his p2p group that was actually the song I wanted. (Sam Kinison, Wild Thing, It was a comedy club) He had 2 laptops and a tablet. I sincerely hope this poor guy was the exception, not the rule, but I was not impressed. At all. Major city, strong wi-fi signal. Didn't seem like he cared about the constant download chimes either. Heard it a hundred times last night and was only there an hour. He was a "Professional" too.
I've been waiting for a Juke box karaoke system to pop up, karafun is similar isn't it? You could just set up a tablet and mic stand lol, much cheaper.
You can never replace a Great Host. They will stick around and be fine, most likely even thrive. Juke box I-pods can offer karaoke just like a teenager can vote in a presidential election. Because they can, doesn't mean they should. Like a teen, bars will do whatever they want, ultimately making the wrong uninformed decision.
I for one welcome it. I'll be fine.
Author:  mrmarog [ Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legal issues of private P2P file swapping
The oldest resurrection of a zombie thread EVER! Forteen years without a reply.

BTW we (KJ's) are still here and doing fine :wink:
Author:  dsm2000 [ Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legal issues of private P2P file swapping
ambientrooster wrote:
Didn't seem like he cared about the constant download chimes either.



Can't believe the number of "Professional" KJ's who do not know that you can easily turn off the entire Windows Sound scheme to silence all the interaction sounds.

WindowsKey+x
Settings
Personalization
Themes
Sounds
Sound Scheme
- Choose - No Sounds
Click Apply
Author:  screamersusa [ Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legal issues of private P2P file swapping
If it were even remotely legal then there would be a thousand streaming karaoke sites already. You would have to use a vpn which is a pain. You would have to rely on the internet to play material. Software manufacturers are already clogging the servers with server based solutions such that no one has the software on their personal machine anymore and MUST use their on line service. The internet is already overloaded. P2P is traceable so it would not be long till the authorities come knocking.
Frankly I don't even want my main rig on the net for downloading because a bad pop up ad will freeze the whole machine. Very bad Idea.
Cloud based central storage is for control freaks to save money and exploit users.
You already have youtube anyway.

The only reason people might be getting away with it now is that law enforcement is overloaded and the money is not there to process civil cases.
You would also need some type of multi user licensing scheme. While you may have ONE copy on ONE server, you are technically distributing said material to multiple users without a license.
Just for fun go look at the Norse attack map...... do you really want to wander in there?
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legal issues of private P2P file swapping
mrmarog wrote:
The oldest resurrection of a zombie thread EVER! Forteen years without a reply.
I know right? Funny looking at my computer and internet stance back then. I switched to computer 4 years later and started buying downloads on the fly around 2012.
Author:  rickgood [ Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legal issues of private P2P file swapping
There is no law enforcement to deal with streaming from YouTube. It violates their terms of service but nobody seems to care about that either.
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