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SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
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Author:  Lonman [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Tom Eaton @ Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:25 am wrote:
For the manufacturers, the deterrent effect is really the only thing they're hoping for.  What good does it do to get a multimillion dollar judgment against some small operation like a sole proprietor karaoke jockey?  You can't collect it, and what you could collect most likely wouldn't cover the cost of the anti-piracy operation.  Maybe in the long term you could hope that people starting up new KJing services will be aware of the legal risks involved and choose to do everything strictly by the book.


Well if I understood correctly - without actually seeing the letter that is being sent out, just on what one has stated - they aren't actually going after the kj, but the club that the kj is working in.  They know they can't make any money off of the kj's, which is exactly the reason ASCAP, BMI etc quit going after dj's & such, but after the clubs.
Author:  ericlater [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
That's right Lonman.

Timberlea,  they don't have to send (if they actually are) the letter to every venue.  And there is nothing stopping them from announcing that their main target are "pirates". Doings so, would have made it clear that they are not trying to hurt the honest KJ!  There is no legality that stops them from discriminating in what they are doing.

FROM WHAT WE HAVE BEEN LEAD TO BELIEVE, IF IT'S ACTUALLY TRUE, SC AND STELLAR ARE NOT TRYING TO DISCRIMINATE.  THEY ARE TRYING TO IMPACT EVERYONE WITH A COMPUTER RIG
Author:  timberlea [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
And they have every right to do so.  That's why it's called The Copyright Act and not "We'll go after some violators but not others" Act.

What they are doing is no different than what Marvel, Paramount, Disney, or the rest do to protect their works.
Author:  kegparty [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
I have found two sites that have the biggest collections of Legal MP3+G songs available. I have stopped using any SC or Stellar products at my shows and have replaced every song with ones that were done on other labels. At this point I am completely legal on the computer.
The impact I won't spend the couple hundred I did each month updating or adding songs to my library from SC or Stellar.
For any computerized KJ's out there the sites are www.cavsusa.com and www.tricerasoft.com
Thanks to the manufacturers who are supporting our efforts to become better at what we do and to allow us to move ahead with the technology.
Panorama Monthly
Chartbuster
Music Meastro
Zoom
Forever Hits
We applaud you for standing with the industry not behind us with a gun....
Author:  Tom Eaton [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
You're right Lonman, that they'd probably proceed against the venues rather than the KJs since the venues have more to lose.  However, I think my main point is still valid.  If the statutory penalty is $150,000 per violation, you're talking damages of $1.5 million for ten songs.  No tavern is going to be able to survive that kind of judgment; they'd go bankrupt.

Ericlater, I don't know if you read the same policy statement as I did from the manufacturers, but it explained in there why they're not exempting 1:1 purchaser/copiers from their enforcement policy.  To do so would violate their contractual agreements with the artists/publishers who own the copyrights and subject them to possible liability as encouraging copyright violations.  In other words, "We sympathize, but this is the way we've got to do it.  Sorry."  

The $64,000 question becomes what happens if they begin enforcement efforts against a KJ who has illegally copied but can show a 1:1 ratio of copies to purchased discs.  Do they let him off with a slap on the wrist when they find that out?  Even if that is what they'd do, they couldn't say so.  There's no way to know, and for those KJs (and venues) that's the problem.
Author:  ericlater [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Tom

You're way ahead of us, or at least me.  We've been asking to see copies of the literature/letters being sent.  Until I see what SC and Stellar have put in writing, I'm not giving this matter another thought (if I can help it) and I am most definitiely limiting how much energy I expand discussing this matter.

As to your understanding of the SC's and Stellar's position regarding exemptions for "legitimate" operators, please consider this in context with what you offered in the previous post.  

IT IS NOT SC'S AND STELLAR'S RESPONSIBILITY TO POLICE THE INDUSTRY; THEY CHOSE TO DO SO.  IN CHOSING TO DO SO, THEY CAN DO OR NOT DO WHATEVER THEY WANT, IMHO
Author:  jerry12x [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Tom Eaton @ Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:44 am wrote:
Ericlater, I don't know if you read the same policy statement as I did from the manufacturers, but it explained in there why they're not exempting 1:1 purchaser/copiers from their enforcement policy.  To do so would violate their contractual agreements with the artists/publishers who own the copyrights and subject them to possible liability as encouraging copyright violations.


Tom, In the UK it is the PPL who collect the monies for the artists.
There is no violation.
SC and others have decided to not be party to this.

Look. I'm a total nubee to this and I am trying a quick catch up.
Please forgive me if I am off track.
I also have switched to Zoom. Easy for me because in the UK we do
little country music.

Ericlater. Dont tell me you are devoting little time to this.
You are understandibly very rilled up.

In ten years It will all be Hard drive based.
The manu's feel they will loose out and
are trying to hold back progress.
TUFF munu's. It will happen.
Author:  hamsamich [ Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
so there are people running around with a copy of everything disney put out to keep customers happy?  there is s difference between karaoke music and other types of digital media.  and digital media is different than a book.  I know you want everything to be simple and fit right timberlea, but things aren't that black and white.
Author:  jerry12x [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
kegparty @ Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:33 am wrote:
I have found two sites that have the biggest collections of Legal MP3+G songs available. I have stopped using any SC or Stellar products at my shows and have replaced every song with ones that were done on other labels. At this point I am completely legal on the computer.


Good to see someone is...


From: "Zoom Karaoke" <sales@zoom-entertainments.co.uk>  
To: xxxxxxxxxxx.net  
Date: Feb 16 2007, 08:31 AM
Subject: Re: Computer use

Hi Jerry,

We don't have a problem, provided you have bought the original discs. The hard drive can never be sold under any circumstances. Any hard drives that appear on eBay etc. are always removed.

It's probably still illegal to do this (I don't know the laws where you live!), but we won't prosecute you for it.

Kind Regards,

Joe
Zoom Ents. Limited
Author:  ericlater [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Thanks Jerry

So, we see from this post that there is at least one karaoke manufacturers that doesn't feel that they are doing something wrong or illegal by ignoring the HD of a non-pirate KJ

UNLIKE SC AND STELLAR, WHO SOME HAVE SUGGESTED HAVE NO CHOICE IN WHAT THEY ARE DOING
Author:  knightshow [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Priddis also believed this way too, but they've gone the way of the dodo bird!
Author:  Tom Eaton [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
I don't know if Ericlater was referring to me when he said that some people have suggested that Sound Choice and Stellar had no choice in what they were doing.  If so, what I said was that this was what I understood their policy statements to say.

I don't work for them and I'm certainly not an expert in those types of arrangements, but it makes sense to me.  This is not just an issue of copyright law but of contractual obligations as well.  Sound Choice and Stellar may have agreements with publishers to make certain efforts to combat violations that other manufacturers may not have.  More fundamentally, even if you assume that the manufacturers are a bunch of soulless moneygrubbers, I don't understand what they would have to gain by putting non-pirate-but-illegal customers into trouble.  As it is they're making money off of them.  If they sue them, they spend a lot of money and force them out of business, losing customers in exchange for a probably uncollectable judgment.  If they could avoid that problem by exempting such customers, it seems to me that they would do so.  There must be a reason that they're doing it the way they're doing it.
Author:  Murray C [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
There is a really good reason.  take this hypothetical scenario.....

Ok, so they find a KJ using SC and/or Stellar tracks on a hard drive...  the KJ acts all sweet and produces the original CDGs.  SC/Stellar say, "Oh, OK we can see you are not a pirate so we will leave you alone".

Unknown to SC/Stellar are the fifty or so hard drives that the KJ has sold with copies of the CDGs on them.  

In other words, SC/Stellar can have no way of knowing if a KJ is being honest with them or not.  Bottom line, if you have their tracks on a HDD, you have illegally copied them.  If they take no action, then the publishers can sue them for aiding and abetting the KJ.
Author:  jerry12x [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
In reality, a KJ using disks could be selling loaded HD's.
Author:  ericlater [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Touche' Jerry.  Murr seems really intent on "getting" anyone running a karaoke show with a hard drive.  What if someone has a hard drive and never uses it in public?However they have a burner that makes 5 copies of a cd at a time?  Can't they set up 5 rigs running off of cd's, without the hard drive ever appearing in public?  So, now we're back to the situation where multiple shows are being run from 4 bootleg copies that came from just one original disk!

Someone, in another thread talked about how the FBI or Justice Dept Can seize a hard drive without a warrant (in a public venue).  I think it was a post of mine that resulted in that statement.  I had wondered, basically, why the FBI or Justice Dept would enter the picture.  Such actions would not occur in a vacuum; something, some stimulus would have to have prompted either agency to get involved.

Assuming that there is really a crackdown on HD shows and that SC and Stellar are the only companies involved, what if someone has a "legal" show on a hard drive and has no SC or Stellar, thereon?  Who's would turnin such a show?  And who would be pressing any civil charges?  And I can't think of circumstances where criminal charges can be imposed without a complaining victim?
Author:  Murray C [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Eric, I am not intent on "getting" anybody...  I am only trying to point out that there is no way SC and Stellar could tell if th KJ was being honest with them.  And if you look at the document they sent out, you will see that they are not only targeting HDD run shows, but also shows using copied CDGs (burns).  

Obviously if you were running a show using a HDD which was loaded with licenced tracks, then there would be no problem whatsoever.  If I were to invest a great deal of money into a business venture, I would ensure that it was a legal busines to start wiht BEFORE investing the money.  It seems to me that those who have a problem with SC and Stellar's stand are those who are running shows with unlicenced tracks and therefore would only have themselves to blame.  Anyone using equipment with licenced music quite obviously has nothing to worry about!
Author:  jerry12x [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Murrlyn @ Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:26 am wrote:
If I were to invest a great deal of money into a business venture, I would ensure that it was a legal busines to start wiht BEFORE investing the money.


I wish more people had those sentiments.
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
jerry12x @ Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:40 pm wrote:
In reality, a KJ using disks could be selling loaded HD's.


In all fairness kj's using discs could be selling straight disc copies too, compilation discs for their customers, not necessarily hard drives.  This could go either way.
Author:  jerry12x [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Dead on my ar$e
Lon...

What a tangled web we weave...
Author:  ericlater [ Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SC and Stellars Tactics are soooo wrong
Murrlyn

We've been asking to see a copy of the document that SC and Stellar sent out.  Do you have a copy.  If so, please post it!
Thanks
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