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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:06 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Stingray does about $100 million a year on their commercial use business. They just recently did their millionth download after nearly 10 years.

If they allowed public use of their tracks without special licensing, they would be giving away their main source of revenue in exchange for an extremely limited market of professional KJs who pay for music.

And yes, that would put them out of business quickly.

so kj's paying for their tracks at a price that is proven to be financially viable (karaoke.net) would put them out of business because....

they just did their one millionth download of what?

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:24 am 
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I think there might be more to it than they just don't want to - maybe they cannot?? Yes it's speculation.
Like said k.net can do it successfully at $1.99 per track. And getting more licensing for more songs every day - for kj and home consumers. They just released Crystal Ball - Styx.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:11 am 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
JimHarrington wrote:
Stingray does about $100 million a year on their commercial use business. They just recently did their millionth download after nearly 10 years.

If they allowed public use of their tracks without special licensing, they would be giving away their main source of revenue in exchange for an extremely limited market of professional KJs who pay for music.

And yes, that would put them out of business quickly.

so kj's paying for their tracks at a price that is proven to be financially viable (karaoke.net) would put them out of business because....

they just did their one millionth download of what?


It would mean essentially giving up a $100 million business for a market that is measured, at best, in the low 7 figures. That would be a colossally stupid business move.

It took them 10 years to sell 1 million downloads on the Karaoke Channel. Not exactly a robust market, compared to what they're doing.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:16 am 
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JimHarrington wrote:
Stingray does about $100 million a year on their commercial use business. They just recently did their millionth download after nearly 10 years.

If they allowed public use of their tracks without special licensing, they would be giving away their main source of revenue in exchange for an extremely limited market of professional KJs who pay for music.

And yes, that would put them out of business quickly.

What are they selling for commercial use, and how do WE the KJs get our hands on it?? See, I just see this as just MORE BS from you and SC, trying to force people who want to use your content into contracts, and license fees, or forcing us to buy your GEM series. Here is a nice little Karaoke seller, who JUST happens to have bought out SC's catalog, and will not allow public use of the product they sell. I STILL smell rotten fish!!

"They don't want to" Harrington, I believe that you are so full of it, that the whites of your eyes are turning brown!! I find it AMAZING that Karaoke.net is making money, hand over fist, selling songs for $1.99 to KJs, and SR would lose their shirt if they did the same. No. There is something wrong there.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:06 am 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
JimHarrington wrote:
Stingray does about $100 million a year on their commercial use business. They just recently did their millionth download after nearly 10 years.

If they allowed public use of their tracks without special licensing, they would be giving away their main source of revenue in exchange for an extremely limited market of professional KJs who pay for music.

And yes, that would put them out of business quickly.

What are they selling for commercial use, and how do WE the KJs get our hands on it?? See, I just see this as just MORE BS from you and SC, trying to force people who want to use your content into contracts, and license fees, or forcing us to buy your GEM series. Here is a nice little Karaoke seller, who JUST happens to have bought out SC's catalog, and will not allow public use of the product they sell. I STILL smell rotten fish!!

"They don't want to" Harrington, I believe that you are so full of it, that the whites of your eyes are turning brown!! I find it AMAZING that Karaoke.net is making money, hand over fist, selling songs for $1.99 to KJs, and SR would lose their shirt if they did the same. No. There is something wrong there.


So contact Stingray, get the answer straight from them and come back here with what they said would be my strategy.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
What are they selling for commercial use, and how do WE the KJs get our hands on it??


Most of Stingray's business is in providing sound recordings for use in film and TV. They are not interested in serving your needs because doing so would take time and energy away from its film & TV business and might jeopardize their relationship with the music publishers whose consent is needed for them to make money from the catalog.

Smoothedge69 wrote:
See, I just see this as just MORE BS from you and SC, trying to force people who want to use your content into contracts, and license fees, or forcing us to buy your GEM series. Here is a nice little Karaoke seller, who JUST happens to have bought out SC's catalog, and will not allow public use of the product they sell. I STILL smell rotten fish!!


Perhaps you should check your refrigerator.

We simply want to be paid for the product people are using.

Smoothedge69 wrote:
"They don't want to" Harrington, I believe that you are so full of it, that the whites of your eyes are turning brown!! I find it AMAZING that Karaoke.net is making money, hand over fist, selling songs for $1.99 to KJs, and SR would lose their shirt if they did the same. No. There is something wrong there.


As I have repeatedly explained, it is not that Stingray would "lose their shirt." It is that they would be jeopardizing a much more lucrative business model for a comparably tiny return. They have zero interest in that.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:13 pm 
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and then they wonder why people download music for free?


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:51 am 
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The whole SC/KC thing is bullshit.

Every ounce of respect I had for Sound Choice went out the window when I found out that KC tracks weren't licensed for commercial use, despite being made available on KJams, Pcdj, and the likes of through Karaoke Locker.

To me, that looked like a blatant trap to continue their business model of suing people to stay alive, rather than... You know... Getting the band back together


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Krisko wrote:
The whole SC/KC thing is bullshit.

Every ounce of respect I had for Sound Choice went out the window when I found out that KC tracks weren't licensed for commercial use, despite being made available on KJams, Pcdj, and the likes of through Karaoke Locker.

To me, that looked like a blatant trap to continue their business model of suing people to stay alive, rather than... You know... Getting the band back together

Exactly. Who, in their right mind, would pay for one of those programs, as a home user, when they can get something like Karafun for free. Professional programs are for professional KJs. If there is music available through those programs it should be for commercial use. The whole thing is a crock.

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:44 pm 
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Isn't it interesting that after all these years, not a single karaoke manufacturer has sued a single software company that makes and sells tools specifically designed to rip discs and play them back "for commercial purposes."

You'd think that if it was such a violation of some law, somewhere, that SC would have sued, MTU, Compuware, Sax 'n dotties, PCDJ, etc. for the same "vicarious infringement" that they like to sue venues for. Namely; profiting off the creation of tracks by infringement methods.

I don't want to hear about "software for personal use" because you and I both know that these companies sell and have always designed and sold their products for commercial use.

Harrington is still full of it and his constant attempt to make his ridiculous lies sound like a reasonable truth is just laughable.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:19 am 
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It seems to be accepted that at least 90% of the KJs out there are pirates. My guess would be closer to 99%. None of those people seem to be worried any longer about Sound Choice coming after them. The paranoid ones settled years ago and the ones who didn't, have reinforced the feeling that being a pirate KJ is nothing but a win win situation. Someone looking to be legit in today's world would have a difficult time trying to build up a disc collection from on line sellers because hardly anyone sells discs any longer. That's why so many KJs have purchased loaded hard drives with over 100,000 songs already on them. The big bad wolf has had his canines removed for the most part and the pirate flag is being flown high and proudly all over the country. It's obvious that the Kurt and Jim show is on its last legs. It's in a virtual death spiral, just like Obamacare. I understand why Sound Choice or PEP will NEVER make another karaoke track. They know that there aren't enough legal KJs out there for them to make a profit. They'd be lucky to sell a couple of hundred tracks before the track shows up on multiple sharing sites. If they couldn't keep the GEM Series from being shared; they'll never be able to protect any new tracks from being shared. There are enough people out there that hate Sound Choice that they are willing to pay for the track just so they can share it as quickly as possible to cut into Sound Choice's profit margin. That's what happens when you alienate a big portion of your customer base by making them pay twice for the same thing. People's karaoke libraries have been growing and growing for the last 7 years without a single Sound Choice track being produced. I was at a show Friday night that was playing Sound Choice tracks right from YOUTUBE. You can't stop progress.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:33 pm 
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my only partial disagreement is with this
"They know that there aren't enough legal KJs out there for them to make a profit. They'd be lucky to sell a couple of hundred tracks before the track shows up on multiple sharing sites."
for SC/PEP specifically, i think you are correct because of your later statement
"There are enough people out there that hate Sound Choice that they are willing to pay for the track just so they can share it as quickly as possible to cut into Sound Choice's profit margin. That's what happens when you alienate a big portion of your customer base by making them pay twice for the same thing."

but overall making a profit from us...
karaoke.net, SBI, KaraokeVersion, Sunfly would beg to differ.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:48 am 
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I have said it, all along. If SC made their catalog available as single song downloads, I would be ALL over it. They would be my go to for MOST older songs. BUT, they seem to have no interest in doing that. Now that I am part of the single song download generation, TO ME, buying discs is pointless. Why spend $15 - $25 on a disc, for one song, when you can just buy that one song for $2 or $3. SC/PEP keeps talking about wanting to make money, and get people to pay for what they use. THAT is the PERFECT way to accomplish that goal. It STILL does not make sense for me to Lease a GEM set for whatever the price of it is, when I KNOW that at least HALF of those songs will be sung at my shows, AND I will have a ton of redundant versions of songs. For ME, single song downloads are the only way to go. IF PEP were TRULY interested in their KJ customers, they would fight, tooth and nail to provide this service.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 8:19 am 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
I have said it, all along. If SC made their catalog available as single song downloads, I would be ALL over it. They would be my go to for MOST older songs. BUT, they seem to have no interest in doing that. Now that I am part of the single song download generation, TO ME, buying discs is pointless. Why spend $15 - $25 on a disc, for one song, when you can just buy that one song for $2 or $3. SC/PEP keeps talking about wanting to make money, and get people to pay for what they use. THAT is the PERFECT way to accomplish that goal. It STILL does not make sense for me to Lease a GEM set for whatever the price of it is, when I KNOW that at least HALF of those songs will be sung at my shows, AND I will have a ton of redundant versions of songs. For ME, single song downloads are the only way to go. IF PEP were TRULY interested in their KJ customers, they would fight, tooth and nail to provide this service.



8) Isn't that the point Smooth SC no longer owns their catalog? They have GEM which was licensed before the rules were changed about foreign product. All they really license now is GEM, and of course the HELP licenses that are of dubious value, since they only protect you from PEP suing you. Besides GEM there is no real hard product and now part of their future earnings depend on SCE convincing venues to hire their services. Of course they are strong arming the venues by saying if they don't, they will get sued. That is really something suing a customer if they don't buy your goods or services.


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Wed May 31, 2017 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:18 am 
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I'm curious, if one *were* to use tracks from Karaoke Channel/Stingray in a commercial setting, would PEP/Sound Choice even have any legal standing to sue the karaoke operator? Yes, the operator is violating terms of service, but they're terms agreed upon between the operator and KC/Stingray. This establishes no relationship/agreement between the operator and PEP/SC.

Wouldn't KC/Stingray have to be the ones to file a lawsuit? And are they known for doing so?


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:51 am 
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fomalley wrote:
I'm curious, if one *were* to use tracks from Karaoke Channel/Stingray in a commercial setting, would PEP/Sound Choice even have any legal standing to sue the karaoke operator? Yes, the operator is violating terms of service, but they're terms agreed upon between the operator and KC/Stingray. This establishes no relationship/agreement between the operator and PEP/SC.

Wouldn't KC/Stingray have to be the ones to file a lawsuit? And are they known for doing so?

Don't know if they would have any legal standing, however there was a club here a few years back that was using Karaoke Channel tracks via PCDJ (I believe they were using SC tracks as well from a hard drive), they ultimately stopped using KC tracks and became GEM holders - so I don't know if that was part of the settlement to stop using those tracks or not - the club no longer uses this particular kj anymore and rarely has karaoke anymore since then.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Do any of the karaoke producers (US) actually have permission to allow commercial use?

And, if true, how would a KJ know? Can a KJ accept the word of the producer?

My understanding is, several "Agencies" collect the fees as needed, thereby allowing public performance.

Did the rules change?


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:49 pm 
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jdmeister wrote:
Do any of the karaoke producers (US) actually have permission to allow commercial use?
Karaoke.net does. Their licensing allows for both home & pro kj use. They have over 20K tracks ready to go (that are available on their UK Custom Burn site), of which only around 9K are available in the US on the k.net site. They are getting as much as they can licensed as fast as they can.
They are also toying with the idea of putting up clearly marked instrumentals for the rest of the tracks they do not currently have or cannot get sync licensing (no fly) for - much like Karaoke Version & SBI are now doing.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Lonman wrote:
jdmeister wrote:
Do any of the karaoke producers (US) actually have permission to allow commercial use?
Karaoke.net does. Their licensing allows for both home & pro kj use. They have over 20K tracks ready to go (that are available on their UK Custom Burn site), of which only around 9K are available in the US on the k.net site. They are getting as much as they can licensed as fast as they can.
They are also toying with the idea of putting up clearly marked instrumentals for the rest of the tracks they do not currently have or cannot get sync licensing (no fly) for - much like Karaoke Version & SBI are now doing.


But the venue still needs pro fees, correct?


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:04 pm 
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jdmeister wrote:
But the venue still needs pro fees, correct?
Of course, that is required of the venue no matter what manufacturer is being used or any other type of entertainement.

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